Antero's pactise journal 2

Thanks for the link Owen! There seems to be some similarities between my experiences and what you guys where experimenting. When I was exiting Nirodha, I was paying attention to the feeling of 'I' as it seems to disappear during NS and slowly come back when powering up begins. I kind of wondered to myself 'if there is no self, then who is watching this?' This, I think, was what triggered third gear on. The light increased with every round of NS and the feeling continued for some time after sitting.

Experimenting with Nirodha

This is my attempt to describe a journey through NS.

Powering down
Visual field getting darker
The funnel starts to form
Sinking
Thoughts do not arise anymore or if do they get destroyed in midair
Feeling similar to falling asleep
Rapid flickering of the eyes, energy surges, trembling
Calm period, powering down continues
Sinking further
Energy build-up
Feeling that approaching something

Everything collapsing to a point
May see a point of light
Energy surge, jolt, involuntary movements
Feeling that is very hard to describe, things happening fast

Very calm feeling on the other side
Feeling of bliss
Feeling of rising
Powering up

Rigba tripping

My working hypothesis is that I am accessing non dual experience in Nirodha Samapatti. This has become my favourite pass-time in trains. This feeling continues easily when I stop sitting and walk home. I let my attention to become aware of the field of awareness filling the space around me and the shift of perception happens, attention getting wider and wider.

There is no sense of self, just doing, observing, walking etc. I am filled with joy and deep contentment. Usually there is a pleasant tingling and rising energy present and little thoughts. I am fascinated by almost any small details: snow formations (despite the icy wind), reflections on glass surfaces, sound of wind'¦ I am even interested in other people, which is hardly my default mode

Exciting.

Good work Antero!

This has some of the features I've heard described as fruitions in the Tibetan traditions. I'd love to know more if anybody can dig up a description. We've now got a few data points, so I'd now file this under repeatable phenomena.
BTW, you got me thinking about this again and I was trying to drop into NS during this very long meeting at work. I had to keep my eyes open so it wouldn't look like I was dropping of to sleep. The effect was entertaining. Vision dropped during the approach while I kept my eyes open, but it wasn't rigpa style. There was a big flash of light on the way back from the hole, I don't know if that was anything new or just a side effect of being able to suddenly process visuals again without the step of needing to open my eyes. Trippy.

Interesting stuff Owen.
How did you feel after coming back, in this meeting?

"Interesting stuff Owen.
How did you feel after coming back, in this meeting?"

Less productive.

Wow Antero, this is fascinating to read! I feel like we are on the same page in our practice, but you are ending the page and I'm starting it. When I read back in the threads I can identify myself in the experience around your first explorations of NS.

A question: Did you find any problems getting passed the event horizon at first? If so, what skillful means are there for nudging over? Right now I'm getting all the way up to the edge (I think) but then I feel a sudden energy surge, a little shaking, and everything comes back on line. It doesn't seem like I'm tipping over, but then again, everything happens so fast...

Hi Ron,

My experiences on NS are quite limited, so take everything I say with a pinch of salt. When I tried it first, I hit a wall after some time of powering down. I just couldn't make it sink deeper. It seems to require reasonable level of concentration to do it. I think the trick is to surrender to the feeling of sinking and hold the trigger gently with diffused concentration. I feel almost like I am merging with the button.

For me there are two phases of energy activity when I am going down. With the first one there is some fluttering of the eyelids, perhaps some shaking, but it will pass when the powering down continues. As the sinking continues, I am getting some build-up of energy and a feeling of anticipation. There is an exciting feeling that I am approaching a limit of some sort.

The next part happens fast and is a bit hazy to me. There is a major surge of energy, some shaking, some involuntary movements of the eyelids and twitching. At this point I may momentarily experience everything collapsing into a point or a flash of light. Then there is just feeling of calm and peace. The transition is very fast and it is hard to tell what exactly is happening there. From your description on your practise journal I get the impression that you are getting the same experience as I am.

Antero.

At what point do sounds and things like that start going out?

I'm getting a simpler and simpler mind-state, pleasant energy and vibrations, heaviness at some point, fluttering eyelids, etc. So I think I've got the spot, but perhaps not enough concentration/practice in yet.

I played around with that last night and then later on that night I had sleep paralysis for the first time ever.

Hi Antero...

Awesome stuff on NS. I haven't practiced it a ton, but I can't get myself beyond the event horizon of total shutdown... at some point during shut down I get kicked out into an energy surge. I am going to try some of your concentration tips!

Back to a previous post: I don't find the PL jhanas super pleasant, at least a general rule. Bliss seems a quasi-independent thing that I attribute to other factors:

The first is the energetic and emotional state underlying the jhanas. I find I can enter the jhanas with an underlying state that is very open/happy or sad/contracted. Also, neutral. In the latter two cases the jhanas will carry these flavors and not be particularly pleasant. Or maybe mildly pleasant mixed with other feelings (I think jhanas and the underlying state/nana are two different brain regions--that is my theory).

A second, related factor is that the most blissful/happy meditative experiences don't seem to me to come from the jhanas themselves, but from discreet "A&P like events" happening while you are riding the arc. The jhanas are in some sense a neutral platform for other things to happen. But the higher you move in the jhanas, the more likely bliss and pleasantness will break through in discreet moments or for longer periods. Jhanas are just the stage-setters.

A quick example: Sometime between 3rd and 4th I experienced a strong breathing kriya where my heart started to vibrate. This happened somewhere high in the arc. I then spent the next three days in a very blissful quasi-non-dual state, regardless of my jhanic state. Incredibly pleasant but not directly related to the jhanas.

"This has some of the features I've heard described as fruitions in the Tibetan traditions.
...
The effect was entertaining. Vision dropped during the approach while I kept my eyes open, but it wasn't rigpa style. There was a big flash of light on the way back from the hole, I don't know if that was anything new or just a side effect of being able to suddenly process visuals again without the step of needing to open my eyes. Trippy.
-Owen"

Sounds like an interesting experiment, Owen! I will try it once I get the hang of the basics first. I wonder if there are any Tibetan masters reading this thread? If there are parallels, it would be nice to know more.

"At what point do sounds and things like that start going out? -Mumuwu"

Hi Jayson,

Nick pointed out to me that in NS it is the five aggregates that are shutting down. This is Wikipedia explanation of the aggregates or Skandhas (which I was quite ignorant of :-X)

''¦are any of five types of phenomena that serve as objects of clinging and bases for a sense of self. The Buddha teaches that nothing among them is really "I" or "mine".'

See:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skandha

1. "form" or "matter"[4] (Skt., Pāli rūpa; Tib. gzugs):
external and internal matter. Externally, rupa is the physical world. Internally, rupa includes the material body and the physical sense organs.[5]

2. "sensation" or "feeling" (Skt., Pāli vedanā; Tib. tshor-ba):
sensing an object[6] as either pleasant or unpleasant or neutral.[7][8]

3. "perception", "conception", "apperception", "cognition", or "discrimination" (Skt. samjñā, Pāli saññā, Tib. 'du-shes):
registers whether an object is recognized or not (for instance, the sound of a bell or the shape of a tree).

4. "mental formations", "impulses", "volition", or "compositional factors" (Skt. samskāra, Pāli saṅkhāra, Tib. 'du-byed) :
all types of mental habits, thoughts, ideas, opinions, prejudices, compulsions, and decisions triggered by an object.[9]

5. "consciousness" or "discernment"[10] (Skt. vijñāna, Pāli viññāṇa[11], Tib. rnam-par-shes-pa):

1. In the Nikayas/Ä€gamas: cognizance,[12][13] that which discerns[14]
2. In the Abhidhamma: a series of rapidly changing interconnected discrete acts of cognizance.[15]
3. In some Mahayana sources: the base that supports all experience

(continued)

There is also some interesting stuff on Wikipedia about the relationships between the Skandhas according to Pali Canon.

I experience the powering down of the skandhas, but still I am not entirely unaware of my surrounding. So apparently they do not completely shut down. Cycling through NS seems to be very absorptive state, but I do not miss my station when doing this in the train.

There is one event that is happening quite fast, which I do not get. Sometimes I get the feeling like everything is collapsing to a point (singularity?). My theory is that this the moment of complete shutdown. After that I feel completely relaxed without the feeling of 'I', so perhaps the Skandhas were turned off for just a little while?

All this is just speculation, so do not take my word for it. Actually it would be nice if the big boys of the forum would step in and tell what really happens.

"Back to a previous post: I don't find the PL jhanas super pleasant, at least a general rule. Bliss seems a quasi-independent thing that I attribute to other factors:
- Mark"

Hi Mark!

I like your theory about the jhanas. From my experience there seems to be many ways to experience any one jhana. I asked Kenneth about this and he said that jhanas have all the characteristics of other jhanas built in as well. I learned that I can tune my mind to pick up some aspects of a jhana that I don't usually get. For some reason I tend to get the formless side of them more easily. With practise I was able to steep myself into the pleasant/unpleasant aspect; it just takes more effort to do so.

A major shift happened in my practise a week ago and I have now had some time to observe the results.

Here is a summary:

Tendency to take things personally reduced
Irritability reduced
Increased happiness, spontaneous feelings of joy
Less need to defend my viewpoints
Mind is more transparent, able to clearly see emotions and thoughts almost automatically
Better able to surrender to unpleasant sensations, like feeling of cold
The need for sleep reduced
A lot of energy activity during the day
Easy access to a perspective that feels non-dual
No desire to do formal practise, just want to enjoy life
When sitting, jhanic arc moving fast and easy, 5-10 minutes to PL jhanas

"(continued)

There is also some interesting stuff on Wikipedia about the relationships between the Skandhas according to Pali Canon.

I experience the powering down of the skandhas, but still I am not entirely unaware of my surrounding. So apparently they do not completely shut down. Cycling through NS seems to be very absorptive state, but I do not miss my station when doing this in the train.

There is one event that is happening quite fast, which I do not get. Sometimes I get the feeling like everything is collapsing to a point (singularity?). My theory is that this the moment of complete shutdown. After that I feel completely relaxed without the feeling of 'I', so perhaps the Skandhas were turned off for just a little while?

All this is just speculation, so do not take my word for it. Actually it would be nice if the big boys of the forum would step in and tell what really happens.

"

theravadin.wordpress.com/2009/03/06/nirodha-where-is-nibbana/

I want to give a shout out to the link that Nik posted above. I read it yesterday, and though it is technical and from a more traditionally Buddhist perspective, it is dead on to what I had come to suspect about the nature of cessation. Worth a read.

Thanks Nick, nice link!

I am more bored than ever with the jhanic arc. All I want to do is to dwell in this new state where there is nothing but light.

There seems to be a couple of ways to get there:

- I go deep when dwelling as the Witness and ask myself 'Who is witnessing the witness?' the Witness may fade away leaving only bright light.

- After doing Nirodha for some rounds I pay attention to the feeling of no-self after exiting the event horizon. Repeating Nirodha makes the light brighter.

- I pay attention to the awareness present in space around me. There is a shift as the attention starts to widen. The attention becomes panoramic starting from the outer corners of my vision.

- After a fruition there is a blissful afterglow. Surrendering to this glow makes the light brighter.

All that seems to be required to maintain the state is surrendering to it. The less there are intentions of any kind, the brighter the light becomes. Just being in that light feels like the most relaxing thing I can do at the moment.

The state has its own pleasant energy state to it. There can be considerable energy movement when I am dwelling in the light, like multiple fruitions and sudden jolts of energy.

The state may continue for some time after I quit sitting. Hearing me speak can sound strange. Who is that guy anyway?

Yesterday I went through my practise with Kenneth and he encouraged me to follow my gut and continue to practise taking the nature of mind as an object. What I have been drawn to do lately apparently resembles Mahamudra meditation. So this is now my default practise on and off the cushion.

Kenneth sent me this interesting link on Mahamudra:

www.keithdowman.net/mahamudra/tilopa.htm


A couple of verses from 'Tilopa's Mahamudra Instruction to Naropa in Twenty Eight Verses':

Gazing intently into the empty sky, vision ceases;
Likewise, when mind gazes into mind itself,
The train of discursive and conceptual thought ends
And supreme enlightenment is gained.

Like the morning mist that dissolves into thin air,
Going nowhere but ceasing to be,
Waves of conceptualization, all the mind's creation, dissolve,
When you behold your mind's true nature.

'¦

The mind's original nature is like space;
It pervades and embraces all things under the sun.
Be still and stay relaxed in genuine ease,
Be quiet and let sound reverberate as an echo,
Keep your mind silent and watch the ending of all worlds.

The body is essentially empty like the stem of a reed,
And the mind, like pure space, utterly transcends
the world of thought:
Relax into your intrinsic nature with neither abandon nor control -
Mind with no objective is Mahamudra -
And, with practice perfected, supreme enlightenment is gained

30 min sit

Dwelling as the Witness, I let the jhanic arc take me all the way up to PL5. In this state I feel like a small point of consciousness floating in space of full of bright and relaxing light. The feeling is very similar to 3rd gear except for the perspective of experiencing everything from a single point suspended in infinity.

As I turn my attention to the space around me, the perspective shifts and I am the space. I feel like turning inside out. Awareness and space becomes one. As the absorption deepens, the light increases and I start feeling happiness and deep contentment.

I feel tension at some parts of my body. As I turn the attention to these areas, the tension disappears and little by little the mind becomes calmer and more expansive and awareness of the body disappears.

At the end of the sit the energy starts to move and I experience a jolt that leaves the mind blank and blissful. Everything is good.

When abiding in the 3rd gear perspective, it would seem that there is no Self present. There is a sense of ease and wellbeing that is more relaxing and enjoyable than High Equanimity or Pure Land Jhanas. If one looks closer, there is still a taste of dissatisfaction behind the scenes telling me that this is just another state, nothing more.

With some practise, changing the perspective becomes automatic and one needs just to get soaked in it in order to get into a deep absorption. At times 3rd gear seems to become a default mode, so if I want to experience the jhanic arc again, I need to consciously will myself back to the first gear perspective. It is possible to spend most of the waking hours in this state and it may even follow into the dream state obscuring everything with its glow.

It is as if while I am spacing out and surrendering myself to this nice glow, in the background some more and more subtle layers are being peeled off, releasing some energetic phenomena on their way out.

"If one looks closer, there is still a taste of dissatisfaction behind the scenes telling me that this is just another state, nothing more." -Antero

This is very high level practice, Antero, and your instincts are deadly accurate. Take your time with this, let it ripen and develop, and keep wondering about the dissatisfaction. What would have to go in order to leave the dissatisfaction behind?

Kenneth

"What would have to go in order to leave the dissatisfaction behind?

Kenneth"

Something to consider! All thanks to your pointer, this evening all self referencing thoughts made me smile broadly like at a good joke.


Antero.