Antero's pactise journal 2

My progress as a yogi could be described as a series of states of mind attained and then dropped as useless. I feel that the same is happening with 3rd gear perspective as nice as it is.

Will I one day come to the realization that no states of mind are necessary?

Hello Antero,

reading your insights is really thrilling.
As you seemed to be really involved in the 3rd gear kind of practise i thought it would be nice if you could try to parallel your experience with the traditional maps of dzogchen and mahamudra.
The tibetans have 1200 years of practice behind them and the largest body of literature worldwide on this subject. Maybe it could be useful. Anyway here is a link to a very thorough introduction to dzogchen practice, In case you have the time, do read the two essays and let us know where it matches or not your experiences. The website is a huge ressource for all kind of vajrayana or non dual practise.
here it is: www.berzinarchives.com/web/x/nav/group.html_1560843409.html
if you or anyone has specific question about tibetan stuff feel free to ask, as i'm translating tibetan and i have access to a lot of ressources on the theory side ( on the practice side i'm still in the kindergarden).

Happy new year to all

"My progress as a yogi could be described as a series of states of mind attained and then dropped as useless. I feel that the same is happening with 3rd gear perspective as nice as it is.

Will I one day come to the realization that no states of mind are necessary?
"

hm, I would probably spend a bit more time getting familiar with 3rd gear as a "state", as I think there may be something to unravel about it (at least from what I think you are experiencing). 3rd gear should not be able to be described as a state ( I find Kenneth's description of it here in KFDh to be one of the best ones, along with a couple of great Zen descriptions of Emptiness). In my experience, going into 3rd gear and coming back to 2nd (in a very subtle way) gave me this amazing glow. Experiencing the manifest world in full 3rd gear does have an unfiltered feeling to it, but it wasn't until I would shift back to 2nd that I would notice the arising and passing of phenomena, and states manifesting.

Nikolai had a pretty good description of it also. I'm quoting from memory here: "it feels as if all there is is that one instantaneous present here and now and it just seems to feel like it stretches" in full 3rd gear, no self manifest, and abosuletly nothing is conditioned. Everything is experienced as the primoridal awareness that permeates both the manifest and unmanifest equally. There are no points of reference. Therefore, it follows that there is nothing to do, nowhere to go, no need, no desire, no beginning, no end, no change. fully surrendering to the experience right here and now

Jorge, my post #125 was written in a slightly frustrated state of mind. It may be that I haven't seen the bottom of 3rd gear yet, since I have just found it, but even in the deepest absorption I have found that part of me is restless and dissatisfied. This gave rise to the feeling of disillusionment with all mind states. It may also have something to do with the general feeling of confusion and dissatisfaction with my practise as I feel tired of cycles, fruitions, and all that repeating endlessly.

What do you mean by saying that 3rd gear 'should not be defined as a state?' Or perhaps we mean different things by the word 'state'. I understand by state that it is something temporary, as opposed to an attainment.

I explored the boundary between 2nd and 3rd gear a bit today on my way home and there was something interesting happening energetically as I shifted between the states. It definitely deserves a closer look.

Antero

[edited for clarification]

Obobinde, thank you for the excellent link! I am new to this 3rd gear perspective and there are many practitioners on this forum with MUCH more experience than me and who are more qualified to do this kind of comparison. Perhaps you should start a new thread on the subject?

Happy new year to you too,
Antero.

" It may be that I haven't seen the bottom of 3rd gear yet, since I have just found it, but even in the deepest absorption I have found that part of me is restless and dissatisfied. This gave rise to the feeling of disillusionment with all mind states. It may also have something to do with the general feeling of confusion and dissatisfaction with my practise as I feel tired of cycles, fruitions, and all that repeating endlessly.

What do you mean by saying that 3rd gear 'should not be defined as a state?' Or perhaps we mean different things by the word 'state'. I understand by state that it is something temporary, as opposed to an attainment.

I explored the boundary between 2nd and 3rd gear a bit today on my way home and there was something interesting happening energetically as I shifted between the states. It definitely deserves a closer look.

Antero

[edited for clarification]"

Yes, hitting the bottom of 3rd gear (aka, experiencing phenomena in full 3rd gear) is different than what you have described above. There are no absorptions, or jhanic states arising once you are in 3rd gear (or not insight stages, or fruitions for that matter). If a feeling of disillusionment arises (and you note it) then you are not ini full 3rd gear yet. The observer is absolutely and utterly gone and thus no point of reference, no a single element the experience is conditioned.
that feeling if disillusionement with all mind states however (which indicates 1st, or 2nd gear) is very important realization!! it means that you are developing quickly into a full blown 3rd pather. You soon start to realize that the answer you have been looking for was never in the mental states, of in the insight stages, or the cycles. That is paramount!! Now, try to see what it is that needs to be done. You have gone through all the inisght stages many many times, and can access all the absobtion/jhanic states, including NS. cont...

cont...

3rd gear is not a state because of the fact that it is fully unconditioned. Your ability to stay there may be temporary (at least at this stage of practice) but actual 3rd gear isn't. It is. I really like the way Kenneth has described 3rd gear here in KFDh. There is simply nothing past full 3rd gear.
There are many great descriptions of it. For fear of sounding too "Zen-ish", I'm containing myself from going into many of the ways I would describe it (aka, pure "emptiness", one has merged with the backgrond, foreground and background fully merged, being the screen, the projection on the screen, and the projector all at the same time, fully unconditioned phenomena, etc).

what can you notice as annica, dukkha and anatta when you start to shift from 2nd to 3rd? what arises and passes? what manifestations can you realize to be unsatisfactory, how closely can you go to this arising phenomena and realize there is "no-self" in them

Hi Guys,

To avoid confusion could you refer to the type of third gear you are practicing. 3rd gear is an umbrella term that also consists of the Direct Mode which Kenneth has also called 3rd gear. Direct mode is definitley not "unconditioned" as it deals within the realm of nama and rupa.

In my personal current subject to change opinion, nothing is unconditioned except the deathless/nirvana/nibbana which kind of defines it as it lies outside the realm of nama and rupa. If you are talking about that experience of all phenomena kind of feeling like one thing or all things or ISness, without a witness, that is still a conditioned state in my opinion. It is still within the realm of nama and rupa and that is all conditioned. Don't know how it's not conditioned. Could be wrong of course. How is it unconditioned, Jorge?

Nick

Ok, on further investigation I have discovered that it is considered as unconditioned by some. From wiki: Dzogchen
bit.ly/fu2UZu

"There can be found within Dzogchen a sense of Reality as limitless wholeness, a multiplicity which is yet all of one 'taste', which is a borderless wholeness. According to Lopon Tenzin Namdak, it is unconditioned and permanent, changeless, not originated from causes and conditions, blissful, and the base or support of numerous exalted qualities.[20] 'It is at once base, path, and fruit'.[21] 'That reality, unbounded wholeness, is naturally complete.' [21] Also: '... the essence and base of self-arisen wisdom is the allbase, that primordial open awareness is the base, and that recognition of this base is not separate from the primordial wisdom itself. ... that open awareness is itself authentic and its authenticity is a function of it being aware of, or recognizing itself as, the base. ... The reflexively self-aware primordial wisdom is itself open awareness (rigpa),inalienably one with unbounded wholeness.' [22]


But I think that some Theravadans and currently myself would disagree on that. Hmmm...interesting. Anyway, carry on.

"To avoid confusion could you refer to the type of third gear you are practicing. 3rd gear is an umbrella term that also consists of the Direct Mode which Kenneth has also called 3rd gear. Direct mode is definitley not "unconditioned" as it deals within the realm of nama and rupa."

Hey Nick,

I agree that the umbrella of what we have been calling here in KFDh "3rd gear is perhaps larger than it originally was ment to be. Personally, I feel that, although DM may lead to experiencing what is better described as the"classical" definition of 3rd gear ( kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/3rd+Gear ) 3rd gear practice and "experiencing" 3rd gear are two different things.

"
In my personal current subject to change opinion, nothing is unconditioned except the deathless/nirvana/nibbana which kind of defines it as it lies outside the realm of nama and rupa. If you are talking about that experience of all phenomena kind of feeling like one thing or all things or ISness, without a witness, that is still a conditioned state in my opinion. It is still within the realm of nama and rupa and that is all conditioned. Don't know how it's not conditioned. Could be wrong of course. How is it unconditioned, Jorge?

Nick
"

I don't see how that state of "emptiness" and experiencing everything as as pure awareness permeating all that manifests is a state. Simply because things in the realm of nama and rupa manifest does not mean that your experience is conditioned. Experience at this "place" (for lack of a better word) is the whole manifest universe simply being
The universe will never stop being becaue one is enlightened. On the contrary, full embodiedment of enligthenment and liberation is precicely flowing in perfect harmony with the manifest world. If anyone wants to experience "the unconditioned" (which is different than experiencing unconditioned the universe in the here and now) Nirodha samapatti will do. In my opinion, I'm not going to miss the whole entire universe blossoming and manifesting with all its glory simply because it is conditioned. That would be a really big waste of effort on its part

Let me ask you this, when you are experiencing the here and now in full 3rd gear (the ISness as you call it) what is conditioned about your experience?

Great discussion, guys. Let's spin off a thread or two and let Antero have his practice thread back. Here's one I've just started called "Understanding the 3 Speed Transmission:"

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/4418753/-

(Antero, your practice is right on target. I always enjoy reading this log.)

"Great discussion, guys. Let's sin off a thread or two and let Antero have his practice thread back. Here's one I've just started called "Understanding the 3 Speed Transmission:"

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/4418753/-

(Antero, your practice is right on target. I always enjoy reading this log.)"

Great idea, Kenneth!

Looking forward to the new thread!!

Thanks for spinning off a thread on this Kenneth - this discussing is really hitting home for me right now as I'm in the "was that it?" phase between 2nd and 3rd.

Antero - man, I am getting addicted to your practice journal!

@Jorge and Nikolai:
Thank you guys for starting an interesting discussion on 3rd gear. I am following it with interest even though I don't think I have anything to contribute.

@Ron:
I take that as a compliment

[edited: typo]

Being with the body

As I seem to feel general aversion to go into mind states, I have experimented with full body awareness. What I mean by this is that I am taking all the body sensations as a whole as an object of meditation both on and off the cushion. I try to see as clearly as possible body's reactions to thoughts and emotions.

When my mindfulness is strong I can see how emotions are born and how the body is reacting to them. There may be tension around the eyes, constriction of the throat, pressure at the chest or tension of the shoulders as the body is reacting to a negative emotion building up. If I am able to observe all this, it feels like the emotion slows down as it does not have enough momentum to break loose and then it dissipates.

At times it is hard to distinguish the difference between pleasant and unpleasant sensations. There are just different body sensations with no greed or aversion present. As I was already congratulating myself for this discovery, a couple of days ago I hit the dukkha nanas hard and my mindfulness was not strong enough to stop me from suffering.

Nice thing about this practise is that I feel that I am present in the moment as opposed to being in some mind state. When I am doing this on the cushion, I seem to cycle between jhanas 1-4 very rapidly, but as the focus is on the body, the mind is not taking off into Arupa or Pure Land jhanas.

It feels very natural to do this practise with the eyes open, even though so far I have always preferred to sit with the eyes closed.

"@Jorge and Nikolai:
Thank you guys for starting an interesting discussion on 3rd gear. I am following it with interest even though I don't think I have anything to contribute.

"

Dude, thanks for your great thread! Your descriptions on your practice are really great. You are making remarkable progress and it's motivating for everyone else.

Seconding what Kenneth said earlier about your practice, your practice is right on target, mate. Keep up the great work!

"Dude, thanks for your great thread!"

Thanks, dhamma friend!

As I sit while letting the attention rest in the body as a whole, I have a feeling that I really inhabit this corpse, filling it to the brim. The practise feels simple, natural and stripped to the essentials.

As the absorption kicks in, the body calms down and for a while nothing may be happening. The surface of the water is almost perfectly still. Then some thoughts with emotional content appear out of nowhere. The body reacts and the water is stirred. If I am staying with the sensations, it doesn't take long for the surface to become still again. The ripples break the surface for a little while before dissipating completely.

I have really come to like this practise. There is nothing like Being!

As a side note, an unusual experience last night:

I was lying in bed ready to fall asleep and continued to be with the body. As I was sensing the whole body, I was seeing numerous thin tubes of light inside of me. As I continued to look, those streaks of light were literally filling my entire body. Interested, I looked at the area of my spine and saw a column of light about as thick as my arm running the length of my torso and going through the top of my head. The attention was drawn to the crown and the light filled my body and space around me. Then I must have fallen asleep.

Interesting thing about this was that I was not in any jhana and I felt absolutely nothing; no vibrations, bliss, rapture, contentment, excitement or anything at all. I was just feeling a bit curious while watching the lightshow.

Throwing stones

I have invented a new game when sitting and being with the body. When the mind is very still and there are no thoughts arising, I will throw a pebble into the water. That is: I come up with a thought that has some emotional weight to it and see how the body will react. What happens if I think of this person? Ok, nothing much. What if I visualize this person in a particular situation and let is sink in for a moment?

It is not too difficult to ride the sensations and ground them when it can be done in a controlled environment. This way I am experimenting with the technique and at the same time conditioning myself for the real thing when the pebbles will be raining from the sky.

[edited: grammar]

"Throwing stones

I have invented a new game when sitting and being with the body. When the mind is very still and there are no thoughts arising, I will throw a pebble into the water. That is: I come up with a thought that has some emotional weight to it and see how the body will react. What happens if I think of this person? Ok, nothing much. What if I visualize this person in a particular situation and let is sink in for a moment?

It is not too difficult to ride the sensations and ground them when you can do that in a controlled environment. This way I am experimenting with the technique and at the same time conditioning myself for the real thing when the pebbles will be raining from the sky.
"

Wonderful.

Full Circle

I feel like my practise is in a weird way coming full circle and I am back where I started. My practise feels the same as when I started and was working my way towards the Stream Entry. (Although full circle is not completely accurate description since I feel that I am seeing things from a slightly higher elevation than back then, so that would make it a helix.)

In the beginning, I knew nothing about mind states. Now I just don't care. I read awesome descriptions of them on other yogis' journals and every once in a while get excited. Very soon I am put off as a question arises: what is the point? All those mind states serve their purpose in a grand scheme of things, but it looks like that at this point in my practise they don't.

Before first path I learned about the connection between the body and the mind by doing noting. Now I am doing the same with the continuous awareness of the whole body and that feels like noting version 2.0. The principle is exactly the same, just taken to a next level.

Also in the beginning one key revelation for me was the interconnection of formal sitting practise and off the cushion mindfulness. At first I was doing the mindfulness to keep the momentum going until I had a chance to sit down on the cushion again. Then the situation was kind of reversed so that I was actually doing sitting practise to be more mindful during the day. Now I am finding a new balance where there is not much difference at all between the sitting practise and every day life. I may sit with eyes open or closed always being with the body. The same goes for the rest of my day. The only difference is the degree of mindfulness and amount of distractions present. Good thing about this is that nowadays my practise cannot be interrupted.

"Wonderful.
-Kenneth
"

Thanks Kenneth!

What path are you Antero?

Yours,
Mark

Edit: I'd guess 4th, but obviously you must be at least 3rd if you are working with NS.

"What path are you Antero?

Yours,
Mark "

Mark, I have experienced one clear shift in perception since 2nd path and that happened exactly one month ago. At the same time I noticed that I have access to Nirodha Samapatti and 3rd gear perspective. By Technical Model that would make me 3rd path, I guess.

Antero.

[Edited to add: Correct me if I am wrong: the definition of 4th path is that a person feels done. I feel exactly the opposite. I have a feeling that I am just taking my first steps on the path and Kenneth's very first teachings are now slowly making sense to me.]