Tummo

"I am coming late to this fascinating thread, and have really appreciated the detail provided by Loco. But as an outsider to all this Tibetan stuff, I am a little confused about the precise connection between Tsa Lung and Tummo, and how this video relates to the core instructions provided above. Could someone please clarify that a bit? Is Tummo just the breathing (or breath holding) part, and Tsa Lung the additional movements?

Thanks again for a great discussion.

-- tomo"

Hi! Tsa Lung is a group of exercises that are used for the preparation for tummo-practice or to reduce eventual sideeffects of tummo.(Same is Trul khor or the 9 breaths of purification which we havn't been talking about yet). You see Tsa lung in the video.

Tummo is the one main and core-practice. You don't see it in the video.

Depending on how you want to conceptualise it you can say Tummo is a part of Tsa Lung or Tsa Lung is a part of Tummo.

"
Thank you for your encouragement, Loco, as well as for your openness to share this. I can answer your questions as follows:
- I would say that the contractions lasted for about 5 to 10 seconds, with about 10 seconds between contractions.
- I haven't done much pranayama lately, but I can hold my breath for at least 90 seconds.
- The contractions were felt around the navel chakra, but involved the whole lower abdomen, forward and backward, like a spontaneous bhastrika.
- By emptiness, I mean the fading away of thr sense of self, while everything from the body to the world outside feels transparant, insubstantial and almost dreamlike, with a deep sense of silence and clarity.
- Since I was trained in Hatha Yoga by an Indian yogi of Swami Satyananda Sarasvati's Bihar Yoga Bharati, I am used to the Hindu version. I made the vajra fist mudra however and will learn the Tibetan sitting posture.

I started it in the evening last night and, the first time, exhaled the energy through the crown chakra. I felt a bit of pressure there afterward, but the first Tsa Lung exercise posted on your video cleared it. My sleep was shallow due to excessive energy. I therefore decided to rearrange my schedule to practice in the marning. Accordingly, I started at 6am this morning and feel great.
"

Hi Alex, it's beautiful isn't it. This natural blissemptiness appearing. 90 sec is quite long for the short period of preparation you gave yourself.

I would be interested if from your perspective these states have correlates in the theravada maps or if they are something different?

After a bit of time of practice it could happen that suffering completely disappears nearly as a matter of course. A feeling as if you are protected like if a higher beeing or god wrapped a warm and cosy invisible black coat around you. Somebody watching and guarding you. A feeling that nothing can happen to you. Accompanied by a sense of determination, firmness, joy to act and shape the world. Some say it feels like one is invincible. Others say you know that you have now become the man that you always wanted to be, when you where a little boy. You know you can lead and others will follow. A feeling of standing on your feet. I myself have a quite adventurous feeling and a perception of a transparent black light or a gravity in everything I see.

It is then fun to take all the beautiful characteristics that the mind shows and realise their formerly "negative" form of appearance in them and learn how they were transformed into what they are now by remembering.

And now to something completey different ....

Was wondering, since it seems tummo makes you feel like a bit of a superman: does it (negatively) affect your ability to care for the feelings of others, admit mistakes, feel compassion, that sort of thing?

"
Was wondering, since it seems tummo makes you feel like a bit of a superman: does it (negatively) affect your ability to care for the feelings of others, admit mistakes, feel compassion, that sort of thing?"

Yes, it can. I haven't seen it, because people normally enjoy other people so much that there is simply a lot of feelings for each other. but it can happen that someone only grows strong and misses the insight of his emptyness especially at the beginning. (thats when tibetans say, he develops into a demon ) missing the third eye of wisdom and the knowledge of emptyness) I would rather say he becomes Captain Jack Sparrow. I wanted to post about the aspect of emptyness anyway, so I will do it now. Thank you for reminding me.

I saw some time ago that for some people who have no experiences with it, it can be difficult to understand what is happening here. So I like to write a bit about it in a way that makes sense for the practicing at this stage and also the more theoretical interested. If it doesn't make sense at all, I would recommend to do what you want, but do something )

If we take for example the feeling of invincibility. Realise that you feel invincible now, because you are not there anymore. you probably haven't noticed your disappearance, because you enjoyed the world and your mind was completely in it. Well thats the thing here. nothing can touch you because there is nothing but life. you see through yourself. but seeing through something means see nothing. there is no something. just what is behind it, just what is there. namely the world. that is the way things happen in this practice, you are disappearing before you realise it. but thats possible because "you" 've never been there at all. we are creating so much energy, joy and lust for the world that you kind of jump into the world before you can realize it. leaving "you" behind. means leaving nothing behind. thats why you haven't noticed it. you didn't miss anything in this world of lust, bliss and joy, did you? because you realize that there never has been anything (but sometimes people don't realize that this is why they are so happy now. they don't realize because there isn't anybody there anymore to realise it.)

'¦tbc

...
you are acting but it is not that "you" did it - it happens out of the moment and it has already happened before ""you" came into the game. forget what you heard about the dying of the ego or killing the ego and all the ********. there is nothing to die. these are metaphors that want to bring some radicality into the game to make something clear. but of course they are not so useful, because no human being wants to leave somebody dying alone behind or kill somebody (especially not if it is yourself . one would want to safe him and it will strengthen this way the illusion that there is somebody.

Now try to do the following, say to yourself: "Aah, i am already that far, i did a great practice, i am faster than the others, i am better. i will hide that I know that I am better and they will not see it. so they can not give me problems or attack me. but I know. I made myself invincible. I can do that. I always knew it would turn out l like this. I was already better as a child. I knew it before. I am different. I am a very talented person. I am something special."
While doing this, you will feel that it is somehow painful, it puts a kind of burden on you. you now have to carry something. it changes your naturally appearing feeling of invincibility into something personal, something you did. you put something in between you and the world that you can't get rid off easily. there is something you have to walk around now, to get contact to other people. notice that this is suffering. a human needs direct contact to others, he needs to be touched by people and by the world directly. this great looking "I" is a kind of fat heavy chicken, an old chewing gum, a cake of pure sugar, a plug for everything flowing, a terrible weight to carry. that's why it has to do so much advertising. So simply go back to the joy of the world. The ego is not a thing, it is a doing. so if you stop, it disappears.

Your invincibility was true and honest (what they call divine pride) before we made the experiment and let the ego abuse it, reshape it and put it as plug into the sink. from now on the water would rise and suffering in all forms appear. pull the plug, and you will not need the plumber. or a new house.

notice also that you can easily switch on the level of energy you have achieved. by simply forgetting what you read and look back into the world. forget it and see around you, feel the pleasure of your body again. come back into reality, which is always there for you. will always be there for you. waiting for you to come home and reunite.

All the things Loco is writing are as wrong as they are right. They mean nothing compared to your experience.

Not relating specifically to Tummo, but to "energy work" in general: my experience has been that these practices can serve two pragmatic purposes (in addition to being a pursuit in and of themselves).

One is to help balance difficult periods during practice by offering a tool for resting in pleasant states, in the same way you can use jhanas.

Another is to provide a range of altered states and sensate phenomena to which one can apply insight (jhanas can be used this way too, if I recall).

and third, since meditation often seems to spontaneously stir up these energy flows, doing a practice to encourage and manipulate that flow may speed up that process. Whether that's beneficial or not I'd just be guessing.

"Hi Alex, it's beautiful isn't it. This natural blissemptiness appearing. 90 sec is quite long for the short period of preparation you gave yourself.

I would be interested if from your perspective these states have correlates in the theravada maps or if they are something different?
"


Checking the retention time with a clock this morning, it seems that I am actually around 70 seconds. I was used to alternate breathing with retention periods of 64 seconds with the ratio 16/64/32, but this was a while ago. And had assumed that I could still easily get to 90 sec, but was far as too optimistic, LOL. My guess is that the bliss that arises is the "Piti" that you feel in the 1st and second Jhanas. What puzzles me is how this energy seems to generate and sustain the natural state of Mahamudra. If people are able to settle in the natural state with Tummo, a few months of Mahamudra vipashyana investigating the essential nature of the calm and moving mind can lead to deep insights into the nature of the Mind. Once this recognitions clicks and leads to a permanent transformation, they are de facto at what Daniel Ingram calls 4th Path. My experience of what people call technical 4th path on this forum seems to match the first level of the stage of 'One Taste' according to the Mahamudra tradition.

I have experienced this sense of being protected by a powerful being while infused with a sense of invulnerabilty with my initiation into Palo Monte, but will see if I experience something similar with Tummo. I will also try to contact Milarepa during the weekend.

"Not relating specifically to Tummo, but to "energy work" in general: my experience has been that these practices can serve two pragmatic purposes (in addition to being a pursuit in and of themselves).

One is to help balance difficult periods during practice by offering a tool for resting in pleasant states, in the same way you can use jhanas.

Another is to provide a range of altered states and sensate phenomena to which one can apply insight (jhanas can be used this way too, if I recall).

and third, since meditation often seems to spontaneously stir up these energy flows, doing a practice to encourage and manipulate that flow may speed up that process. Whether that's beneficial or not I'd just be guessing. "

Yes, this would be a theravadalike interpretation. Kind of including the phenomenon into the theravada worldview without changing the worldview. (The question then would be, where is it in the maps, cause it is not inducing jhanas.)

Another would be (tibetan saying) : "It is easier to wake up from a good dream (into reality)." If the dream is that good (that close to ultimate reality) you will wake up from it in a kind of gliding over.

Another one: Enlightenment is a physiological process in the body. You can induce it indirectly and slow or directly and quick. The result is the same. Some called it "enlightenment without meditation" or "enlightenment for the lazy" (Buddhist Geeks 193)

A! I see I haven't seen your post Alex...

Fact is that awakening is awakening regardless of traditions. I dare to say that, because I did not practice within the Mahasi Sayadaw Theravada tradition but followed an eclectic mix of Zen meditation [shikantaza and koan investigation] and magick with a focus on the invocation of the Holy Guardian Angel and got the same results confirmed by three Zen masters, one Theravada teacher and two Advaita Vedanta gurus. This means that we can bypass the stages of insight [as described in Daniel's book] and get to the same destination by other means.

"
Fact is that awakening is awakening regardless of traditions. I dare to say that, because I did not practice within the Mahasi Sayadaw Theravada tradition but followed an eclectic mix of Zen meditation [shikantaza and koan investigation] and magick with a focus on the invocation of the Holy Guardian Angel and got the same results confirmed by three Zen masters, one Theravada teacher and two Advaita Vedanta gurus. This means that we can bypass the stages of insight [as described in Daniel's book] and get to the same destination by other means.
"

I'm in agreement with this. The stages of insight seem to be produced by the style of Mahasi practice. Different traditions will have things in different order, but I think there are some major stages of practice that are evident if you look from a high enough altitude.
That being said, the Mahasi style just rocks if you dig developmental enlightenment as an engineering problem. (I do)

I'll raise a dissenting voice for argument's sake:

Not knowing what to watch for... I think if that's the case then it might be quite possible to miss the Theravada stages of insight, and so they might be passed through but not seen.

Thoughts?

"
I'll raise a dissenting voice for argument's sake:

Not knowing what to watch for... I think if that's the case then it might be quite possible to miss the Theravada stages of insight, and so they might be passed through but not seen.

Thoughts?

"

Seems clear the practitioner might not notice stages of insight if not doing that kind of practice, but in later discussion with someone else, might be able to look back and see some parallels (especially with a long view, looking back after some years, rather than looking at last week). But if they weren't paying attention to those specifics, they also might not even recall them - we tend to recall best things we think are significant, no?

According to Culadassa, the stages may differ or not present/ be experienced depending on what characteristic is taken as object.

START OF QUOTE:
1. Whether or not the Insight Knowledges occur in the same order depends very much upon the method of practice.
They occur in the order given in the Vissudhimagga and in Mahasi's Progress of Insight if a) one is practicing "vipassana (Insight) before samatha (tranquility)" (cf. the Yuganaddha Sutta, AN 4.170), and if b) one is using a method that is designed to make Insight into anicca (impermanence) the first to arise while Insight into anatta (emptiness of Self) is left to the very end.

[For those who might be puzzled about the Samatha that follows what they may have thought of as a "pure" Vipassana practice, please note that the Knowledge of Equanimity Towards Formations is Samatha.]

With regard to a):
If one practices "samatha before vipassana", then the Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away and the Knowledge and Vision of Path and Not-Path will come before the Purification of View and Overcoming Doubt rather than after it. But the View and Overcoming Doubt must obviously still precede the Insight Knowledges themselves.
And if one practices "samatha together with vipassana", then even more variability in the order is possible.

With regard to b):
Knowledge of Dissolution followed by the Dukkha Knowledges is an order that is quite specific to a practice geared towards anicca as the first Insight. Knowledge of Dissolution is the entry into actual Insight with Insight into anicca being the first, and Insight into dukkha being the second. Practices oriented towards a different "entry" into Insight will, of course, not follow this order at all.

2. Insight into Dukkha is a miserable experience if a) one launches into Insight without the "lubricating moisture", i.e. piti (joy), passadhi (tranquility), and upekha (equanimity) of Samatha; and if b) Insights into anicca, sunyatta, and dukkha precede insight into anatta. Deepening Insight into impermanence by someone who still has a strong intuitive sense of being a real, separate Self can be a terrifyingly miserable experience. A "Self" in a world of impermanent and empty "things" to which that Self tries to cling is the very definition of dukkha.

With regard to a):
A mind imbued with piti, passadhi, and equanimity can navigate this voyage of discovery with far more... well..., joy, tranquility and equanimity to mitigate the fear misery and disgust of confronting the reality of the way things are.

And with regard to b):
Of course, to the degree to which the emptiness of Self has been both intellectually realized and intuitively assimilated, to that degree one is effectively immunized against the experience of dukkha during the process of further deepening of Insight into the nature of dukkha. END OF QUOTE (see link for more details as he continues on discussing this.)

groups.yahoo.com/group/jhana_insight/message/2805

Right. But you will agree with one may experience the same things or at least reach technical 4th path through other similar means. What is unique to Buddhism doesn't seem to be technical forth path (simply because Advaita jnanis get there too), but what you have discovered a few weeks ago. This last jump that puts an end to the flow of becoming seems to be the very core of Buddhism and what distinguishes the Buddha dharma from other genuine yogic paths. This is also what seems to distinguish the path of the arhat from the bodhisattva path.

I am tempted to believe that in order to be a bodhisattva on the Mahayana path, one needs to maintain a tiny bit of ignorance (the last subtle fetter), without which one will not be able to come back as a reincarnated teacher (Tib. Tulku), and will instead enter into Parinibbana. This may explain the resistance to the idea of not being able to experience emotions anymore in the state of No-Self.

I other words, most of the resistance and arguments around the issue of emotions, feelings and passions seems to boil around the fact that at a certain advanced stage, one needs to opt for one of the two paths.

Thoughts?

"This last jump that puts an end to the flow of becoming seems to be the very core of Buddhism and what distinguishes the Buddha dharma from other genuine yogic paths. This is also what seems to distinguish the path of the arhat from the bodhisattva path.

I am tempted to believe that in order to be a bodhisattva on the Mahayana path, one needs to maintain a tiny bit of ignorance (the last subtle fetter), without which one will not be able to come back as a reincarnated teacher (Tib. Tulku), and will instead enter into Parinibbana. This may explain the resistance to the idea of not being able to experience emotions anymore in the state of No-Self.
"

From my perspective, I've got to disagree with this. I find that the lack of emotions and ignorance about me vs other make this a much better platform to be kind and open, it's just different.

To give you an example, before if I burned my hand on the stove I didn't worry about generating affective compassion for my hand before I pulled it away and cradled it. I just did it. My hand was not though of as "other".
Now, it's the same with people. When they hurt I do something about it if I can and there is just no drama about it. If others are suffering, I'm suffering. I firmly believe now that what I thought of as love and compassion was the fallout in the body of the ego trying to block the fact that there is only one of us in here and make a Big Deal about it. When compassion is natural, it doesn't register as compassion it registers as common sense.

The retaining ignorance so I can come back thing seems like it might be a shaky interoperation. There never was anybody to come back and I doubt a pattern of ignorance ever helped anybody. I think the bodhisattva path is more about get as enlightened as you can as fast as you can to be as useful as you can - but don't dissociate into emptiness to the point where you are a highly enlightened lump.

"The retaining ignorance so I can come back thing seems like it might be a shaky interoperation. There never was anybody to come back and I doubt a pattern of ignorance ever helped anybody. I think the bodhisattva path is more about get as enlightened as you can as fast as you can to be as useful as you can - but don't dissociate into emptiness to the point where you are a highly enlightened lump.

"

Nice. This certainly squares with how Vajrayana teachers I'm familiar with express Bodhisattva stuff.

Also, this fits nicely with how I've understood boddhicitta, the awakened heart/mind of the awakened being (bodhisattva):

relative bodhicitta is the completely inclusive, utterly unconditional caring, love, whatever you wanna call it which is completely open to all.

Absolute bodhicitta is the insight into the non-existence of all apparent beings--- though there are differences in one experiential continuum from one moment to the next, and between different continua, there is no separation, because nothing exists in a way that could be separate-- not even the flows of ignorance and consequent clinging/aversion which *assume* such separateness are actually so.

And the relative/absolute distinction is purely verbal, the insight is holistic and only delusion makes them seem separate (in which case, one could have deluded insight into emptiness without compassion, for instance, and become an "enlightened lump", saying "no one to suffer, so why should I help?").

If you get into all kinds of strange states and can not hold the breath long, there is often an easy solution called "Equalising". It means that both sides of the lung should be filled with the absolute same amount of air. After you breath in and hold, check if both sides of the lung really feel the same. humans have a quite precise feeling for this.

Fill the side of the lung that has less volume by closing the opposite nostril (with a finger) and bend the thorax a bit to the opposite side while inhaling into the less filled side of the lung. Check again. After a short time you maybe learn to control with your mind which side of the lung you want to activate when you inhale. you can also close the opposite nostril just 1/3, 1/2, 3/4 and regulate the in-flow in this way (I do this).

If the lungs are filled with the same amount of air, hold the breath and continue with the exercise.

Once sensitised for this you will see that unpleasant states in daily life are also correlating with asymmetric filled lungs. After progress in tummo you will feel that your body always fills both sides of the lung absolutely symmetrical without your assistance.

Within short time your maximum lung expansion will increase (which is healthy for nearly everything).

(The traditional way to solve the problem is to inhale first 75%, check and wait a bit, then inhale the rest of the 25% with short breaths. Sometimes works, sometimes not. The ancient explanation says the "energy" enters the "psychic nerves" or channels instead of flowing into the system causing troubles, if the lungs are symmetrically filled.)

P.S: I am very interestedly following the discussion guys, it's great! I just have to post some practical tips too, cause I don't want somebody who already started the practice to get into unnecessary problems in the beginning phase.

You maybe remember that the processes of dying, sex and tummo are related. In the process of dying there is a time when the wrathful deities appear. This is in Tummo when the pain/shaking appears and heat burns through the channels. (That's why Tummo-masters sometimes don't take other practices so serious, because it shows that masters of other traditions can not stand even the wrathful deities when the mind is still connected to the body. this in their tibetan concept of course means, that when you die you will be taken away by them easily (no body no safetynet) the amount of energy with that one will be confronted after death is simply underestimated they say. good motivation he? ).

But we still have a body ), if "wrathful deities" appear and we give up (stop to early) and let us take away with them there can only appear some unpleasant sideeffects/states. Here is what to do then.

The first inbreath after the exercise is often not deep and complete then. people have a tendency to take fresh air in short breaths as soon as the exhalation is completed. This is known as "The rebounding of the air". "The process here indicated consists of expelling the air of the exhalation forcibly, so that the lungs are completely emptied to the very bottom, and then refilling the lungs completely to the very bottom by slowly drawing in the inspiration."

if you got somehow a kind of headache put your palms on the head, above the ears, on thr temporal bones on the left and right side and press both together to the middle nearly as strong as you can (!), do the same with front/back/sides. experiment. find the spot where the pain stops and keep the pressure then. often its gone afterwards. helps against most (bloodpressure/vesselcontractioninduced) headaches of everyday life too.

tbc...

If you got a staying "red or hot head", sometimes combined with a feverlike weakness and maybe angry/grumpy mood, take an icecold shower. let the water run over the skull and the back along the spine downwards, until its better. This is not a sign of success like you can often read in internetforums.
It means that you transformed energy only into bodily heat instead of transcendental heat, have not gotten the ability to regulate it.

Once the connection between head and butt is established and "burned through" or clean all this can not happen anymore.

"The head stays then where the butt is" tibetans say, meaning you stay in the moment effortlessly. the head (intellect) is connected to the pelvis (instincts/feelings) and they are not wanting different things at the same time anymore. they now know about each/are the same because they are closely and seamlessly connected (i think in a probably neurological way, feels very physical)

"From my perspective, I've got to disagree with this. I find that the lack of emotions and ignorance about me vs other make this a much better platform to be kind and open, it's just different.

To give you an example, before if I burned my hand on the stove I didn't worry about generating affective compassion for my hand before I pulled it away and cradled it. I just did it. My hand was not though of as "other".
Now, it's the same with people. When they hurt I do something about it if I can and there is just no drama about it. If others are suffering, I'm suffering. I firmly believe now that what I thought of as love and compassion was the fallout in the body of the ego trying to block the fact that there is only one of us in here and make a Big Deal about it. When compassion is natural, it doesn't register as compassion it registers as common sense.

The retaining ignorance so I can come back thing seems like it might be a shaky interoperation. There never was anybody to come back and I doubt a pattern of ignorance ever helped anybody. I think the bodhisattva path is more about get as enlightened as you can as fast as you can to be as useful as you can - but don't dissociate into emptiness to the point where you are a highly enlightened lump.

"


I am glad to hear that, Owen, as it clarifies something that has been problematic for many.

Luckily I found the the best version of "Tibetan Yogas and the secret doctrines" on the net. It includes nearly all details. Together with the videos and the thread you have much more information than most lamas and it should be useable (and I don't need to type it all). Here is the link:

www.scribd.com/doc/35504018/Tibetan-Yoga-and-Secret-Doctrines

So you know what to do when you fall into the fridge.