Antero's practice journal 4
- orasis
- Topic Author
13 years 11 months ago #80402
by orasis
Replied by orasis on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
"Looking at that display of the essential nature of the mind leaves no doubt about the fact that all phenomena that arises in the mind is just a display of the pure knowingness that is spontaneously present and empty of all meaning, field of energy that is continuously evolving and taking different configurations.
"
Antero: How often are you abiding in this pure knowingness? Does this require a sense of effort or inclination to cause to arise?
"
Antero: How often are you abiding in this pure knowingness? Does this require a sense of effort or inclination to cause to arise?
- Antero.
- Topic Author
13 years 11 months ago #80403
by Antero.
Replied by Antero. on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
This way of being with thoughts and perceptions completely aware of them as they unfold is more inclusive and more attentive state of mind and at the same time more effortless and natural than some of my previous ways of maintaining mindfulness. It all boils down to paying attention to all six senses and especially to the sixth sense of mind consciousness that I have not so far been able to include quite this way before [2].
All manifestations of the mind space are equally attended to with alertness and discernment that is the union of shamatha and vipassana [1]. The emptiness of mind's movements are thus is seen more clearly than ever before.
This moment by moment liberation through seeing the empty nature of mind stuff is completely different approach than the dualistic investigation that has so far been my main path, but at times it seems to lead to same kinds of momentary raptures and wiping-the-slate-clean types of experiences.
In some ways this approach is similar to Nick's description of Actualising Jhanas (see post #120). Recognizing the all-pervading empty knowingness in daily life is analogous to recognizing space of 5th jhana or nothingness of 7th jhana and thus giving the mind another perspective to things. However there is more effort involved in the jhanic approach than this Actualizing Mind's Essence (to borrow the term from Nick
). The principle of least effort seems to guide my practice.
My mind is seems currently to be very sensitive to effort and I am making corrections to my approach whenever effort comes apparent. The other extreme happens when I lose the awareness of the fluctuations of the conceptual mind. I am keeping myself on the path by using these two opposites as my compass.
[edit: typo]
All manifestations of the mind space are equally attended to with alertness and discernment that is the union of shamatha and vipassana [1]. The emptiness of mind's movements are thus is seen more clearly than ever before.
This moment by moment liberation through seeing the empty nature of mind stuff is completely different approach than the dualistic investigation that has so far been my main path, but at times it seems to lead to same kinds of momentary raptures and wiping-the-slate-clean types of experiences.
In some ways this approach is similar to Nick's description of Actualising Jhanas (see post #120). Recognizing the all-pervading empty knowingness in daily life is analogous to recognizing space of 5th jhana or nothingness of 7th jhana and thus giving the mind another perspective to things. However there is more effort involved in the jhanic approach than this Actualizing Mind's Essence (to borrow the term from Nick
My mind is seems currently to be very sensitive to effort and I am making corrections to my approach whenever effort comes apparent. The other extreme happens when I lose the awareness of the fluctuations of the conceptual mind. I am keeping myself on the path by using these two opposites as my compass.
[edit: typo]
- Antero.
- Topic Author
13 years 11 months ago #80404
by Antero.
Replied by Antero. on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
[1] I tried to describe what I mean by the union of shamatha and vipassana, but it seems that I am not yet ready to do that.
[Edit: for the next attempt, see post #141]
[2] This new way of being intimately with all thoughts and perceptions as they arise is really improving the quality of my mindfulness. I can see how potentially this approach would enable one to continue to be aware in dream state also.
This practice seems to have affected my dream state as these phenomena have become more common:
a. Dreaming about mundane thing, like going to work and having conversations with my boss or my colleagues.
b. Dreams of sleeping in my own bed.
c. Waking up many times during the night and having the feeling of continuity of awareness
d. Recognizing that I am dreaming in sleep
e. Lucid dreaming
f. Meditating in dreams
The last category of the list has been the most interesting one. I have been merged in all pervading field of bright knowingness that is somewhat similar to my waking life meditation practice, except for the vividness of the experience is of totally different magnitude. In those states the conceptual part of the mind had totally dissolved into this blissful presence of effortless purity.
[Edit: for the next attempt, see post #141]
[2] This new way of being intimately with all thoughts and perceptions as they arise is really improving the quality of my mindfulness. I can see how potentially this approach would enable one to continue to be aware in dream state also.
This practice seems to have affected my dream state as these phenomena have become more common:
a. Dreaming about mundane thing, like going to work and having conversations with my boss or my colleagues.
b. Dreams of sleeping in my own bed.
c. Waking up many times during the night and having the feeling of continuity of awareness
d. Recognizing that I am dreaming in sleep
e. Lucid dreaming
f. Meditating in dreams
The last category of the list has been the most interesting one. I have been merged in all pervading field of bright knowingness that is somewhat similar to my waking life meditation practice, except for the vividness of the experience is of totally different magnitude. In those states the conceptual part of the mind had totally dissolved into this blissful presence of effortless purity.
- stephencoe100
- Topic Author
13 years 11 months ago #80405
by stephencoe100
Replied by stephencoe100 on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
"[1] I tried to describe what I mean by the union of shamatha and vipassana, but it seems that I am not yet ready to do that.
[2] This new way of being intimately with all thoughts and perceptions as they arise is really improving the quality of my mindfulness. I can see how potentially this approach would enable one to continue to be aware in dream state also.
This practice seems to have affected my dream state as these phenomena have become more common:
a. Dreaming about mundane thing, like going to work and having conversations with my boss or my colleagues.
b. Dreams of sleeping in my own bed.
c. Waking up many times during the night and having the feeling of continuity of awareness
d. Recognizing that I am dreaming in sleep
e. Lucid dreaming
f. Meditating in dreams
The last category of the list has been the most interesting one. I have been merged in all pervading field of bright knowingness that is somewhat similar to my waking life meditation practice, except for the vividness of the experience is of totally different magnitude. In those states the conceptual part of the mind had totally dissolved into this blissful presence of effortless purity.
"
NICE!
[2] This new way of being intimately with all thoughts and perceptions as they arise is really improving the quality of my mindfulness. I can see how potentially this approach would enable one to continue to be aware in dream state also.
This practice seems to have affected my dream state as these phenomena have become more common:
a. Dreaming about mundane thing, like going to work and having conversations with my boss or my colleagues.
b. Dreams of sleeping in my own bed.
c. Waking up many times during the night and having the feeling of continuity of awareness
d. Recognizing that I am dreaming in sleep
e. Lucid dreaming
f. Meditating in dreams
The last category of the list has been the most interesting one. I have been merged in all pervading field of bright knowingness that is somewhat similar to my waking life meditation practice, except for the vividness of the experience is of totally different magnitude. In those states the conceptual part of the mind had totally dissolved into this blissful presence of effortless purity.
"
NICE!
- Yadid
- Topic Author
13 years 11 months ago #80406
by Yadid
Replied by Yadid on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
Yea, Antero,
Gotta say you are very articulate in describing the good results of practice, like a food critique is always good at making you want to eat that dish.
You have inspired me much in the past with your descriptions and continue to do so.
Gotta say you are very articulate in describing the good results of practice, like a food critique is always good at making you want to eat that dish.
You have inspired me much in the past with your descriptions and continue to do so.
- cmarti
- Topic Author
13 years 11 months ago #80407
by cmarti
"All manifestations of the mind space are equally attended to with alertness and discernment that is the union of shamatha and vipassana. The emptiness of mind's movements are thus is seen more clearly than ever before. This moment by moment liberation through seeing the empty nature of mind stuff is completely different approach than the dualistic investigation that has so far been my main path, but at times it seems to lead to same kinds of momentary raptures and wiping-the-slate-clean types of experiences."
Antero, this sounds very much like Soto Zen Shikantaza, a practice I've used off and on for many years. Just sit and let all experience (of the six senses) flow, attending to that without judgment or clinging. This is one very good reason to read, maybe experience, other traditions -- because they have something to offer us.
Replied by cmarti on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
"All manifestations of the mind space are equally attended to with alertness and discernment that is the union of shamatha and vipassana. The emptiness of mind's movements are thus is seen more clearly than ever before. This moment by moment liberation through seeing the empty nature of mind stuff is completely different approach than the dualistic investigation that has so far been my main path, but at times it seems to lead to same kinds of momentary raptures and wiping-the-slate-clean types of experiences."
Antero, this sounds very much like Soto Zen Shikantaza, a practice I've used off and on for many years. Just sit and let all experience (of the six senses) flow, attending to that without judgment or clinging. This is one very good reason to read, maybe experience, other traditions -- because they have something to offer us.
- Antero.
- Topic Author
13 years 11 months ago #80408
by Antero.
Replied by Antero. on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
"Antero: How often are you abiding in this pure knowingness? Does this require a sense of effort or inclination to cause to arise?
- Orasis"
I cannot give you the answer yet for the first question, as I am still experimenting with different approaches as any one way does not seem work all the time off the cushion. In any case it is now my default way of being mindful throughout the day in all situations.
This state is the opposite of effort. Most of the time some inclination or at least remembering is necessary to maintain it. Sometimes it happens on it's own. Let's get back to this when I am a bit more familiar with this practice.
- Orasis"
I cannot give you the answer yet for the first question, as I am still experimenting with different approaches as any one way does not seem work all the time off the cushion. In any case it is now my default way of being mindful throughout the day in all situations.
This state is the opposite of effort. Most of the time some inclination or at least remembering is necessary to maintain it. Sometimes it happens on it's own. Let's get back to this when I am a bit more familiar with this practice.
- Antero.
- Topic Author
13 years 11 months ago #80409
by Antero.
Replied by Antero. on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
@Steve and Yadid:
Thanks guys
@Cris
Interesting to hear that, I know very little about zen. Often after baseline shifts, sitting with open awareness has become a dominating practice for me for a while. Now it seems like the mind is compelled by this type of effortless awareness for some reason. Like a river that is taking the route of least resistance when finding its way to ocean
Thanks guys
@Cris
Interesting to hear that, I know very little about zen. Often after baseline shifts, sitting with open awareness has become a dominating practice for me for a while. Now it seems like the mind is compelled by this type of effortless awareness for some reason. Like a river that is taking the route of least resistance when finding its way to ocean
- mumuwu
- Topic Author
13 years 11 months ago #80410
by mumuwu
Replied by mumuwu on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
"Q: Is there effort required on this path? Personally I find I have less and less energy to make an effort in any direction.
A: You can't make an effort without tension. But why do you make an effort? Only because you're looking for some result, for something outside yourself. Once you really know that what you're looking for is your real nature you lose the impetus to strive. As soon as you are aware of this process you are already outside it. And it may come as an original perception that you are really stillness."
Jean Klein
"The Ease of Being" (p. 57)
A: You can't make an effort without tension. But why do you make an effort? Only because you're looking for some result, for something outside yourself. Once you really know that what you're looking for is your real nature you lose the impetus to strive. As soon as you are aware of this process you are already outside it. And it may come as an original perception that you are really stillness."
Jean Klein
"The Ease of Being" (p. 57)
- orasis
- Topic Author
13 years 11 months ago #80411
by orasis
Replied by orasis on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
Mumu: sometimes the contracted mind needs to apply effort to become concentrated which may scaffold into more complete surrender...
- mumuwu
- Topic Author
13 years 11 months ago #80412
by mumuwu
Replied by mumuwu on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
Agreed, however this was posted after reading Anteros last few posts. If you read those, perhaps it will make clear the context in which this sort of advice from Jean Klein is meant to be taken.
- omnipleasant
- Topic Author
13 years 11 months ago #80413
by omnipleasant
Replied by omnipleasant on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
@Antero Inspiring to say the least!
- Antero.
- Topic Author
13 years 11 months ago #80414
by Antero.
Replied by Antero. on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
@Mumuwu
Thanks Mu, that quote from Jean Klein is very timely for me.
@Omnipleasant
Thank you!
Strange dream last night
In my dream I was lying on my bed and doing some kind of spinal breathing meditation practice and moving my attention up and down along the central channel with the breath. I saw my body as a road map and all the channels where roads on a black background. There was no other information on the map except the yellow and red roads with their numbers and intersections, all drawn like in real roadmaps with varying widths and colors according to their uses and status.
Thanks Mu, that quote from Jean Klein is very timely for me.
@Omnipleasant
Thank you!
Strange dream last night
In my dream I was lying on my bed and doing some kind of spinal breathing meditation practice and moving my attention up and down along the central channel with the breath. I saw my body as a road map and all the channels where roads on a black background. There was no other information on the map except the yellow and red roads with their numbers and intersections, all drawn like in real roadmaps with varying widths and colors according to their uses and status.
- omnipleasant
- Topic Author
13 years 11 months ago #80415
by omnipleasant
Replied by omnipleasant on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
Sounds like an acupuncture/nadi guide.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadi_(yoga)
www.flickr.com/photos/lbibrugge/48533780...es/l/in/photostream/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadi_(yoga)
www.flickr.com/photos/lbibrugge/48533780...es/l/in/photostream/
- Antero.
- Topic Author
13 years 11 months ago #80416
by Antero.
Replied by Antero. on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
"
www.flickr.com/photos/lbibrugge/48533780...es/l/in/photostream/
"
It was very much like that flickr photo except without the outlines of the body
It was very much like that flickr photo except without the outlines of the body
- orasis
- Topic Author
13 years 11 months ago #80417
by orasis
Replied by orasis on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
Antero: Do you think your experience of the union of shamatha and vipassana could be reproduced through the following?:
1) Concentrating on an object until thoughts mostly dissipate.
2) Beginning an inclusive vipassana until an aspect of awareness or emptiness becomes apparent
3) Focusing/abiding in that knowingness of either awareness or emptiness
This is the process I follow to experience self-liberating phenomena and I guess could be describe as a "union of shamata and vipassana", so I wanted to see if this is what you're talking about.
Thanks and best wishes -justin
1) Concentrating on an object until thoughts mostly dissipate.
2) Beginning an inclusive vipassana until an aspect of awareness or emptiness becomes apparent
3) Focusing/abiding in that knowingness of either awareness or emptiness
This is the process I follow to experience self-liberating phenomena and I guess could be describe as a "union of shamata and vipassana", so I wanted to see if this is what you're talking about.
Thanks and best wishes -justin
- Antero.
- Topic Author
13 years 11 months ago #80418
by Antero.
Replied by Antero. on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
Hi Justin
What you described was I did when I started. I will try to clarify the approach that I nowadays take to compare experiences with you if you would be willing to share yours.
At first I mistakenly thought that this type of practice was about freeing the mind of thoughts altogether, and it resulted in an unbalanced ratio of shamatha and vipassana. As a result of this, my mind space will easily become almost totally devoid of activity if the shamatha aspect starts to dominate.
These days my mind space seems to be fluctuating on a very subtle frequency. Thoughts that arise are short lived (even vanishing before they are fully formed) and do not have much momentum and most of the time there might not even be any clear thoughts present but some kind of undercurrent of fragmentary and vague half formed mind stuff. Sometimes the fluctuation slips under the radar completely, so that no mind activity is seen, but I am still feeling the vibration of that process going on in the body.
Following this activity with unwavering attention is the union of shamatha and vipassana as it brings the emptiness [1] aspect of the mind's essential nature very clear to me.
Investigation of that precision is of course not possible off the cushion. Most of the time it is enough to just keep on paying attention to the mind consciousness and the recognition of the mind's nature comes automatically. If for some reason that does not happen I am currently using Actualising the Mind's Essence approach as described earlier (post #126) and tuning the mind into the all-pervasiveness of the knowingness that could be described as the infinite internal space of the awareness and using that experience as a reference point when being mindful of all phenomena.
[1] 'Empty of any inherent, substantial, indivisible, separate and unchanging existence.'
- Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche: The ninth Karmapa's Ocean of Definite Meaning, p. 143
What you described was I did when I started. I will try to clarify the approach that I nowadays take to compare experiences with you if you would be willing to share yours.
At first I mistakenly thought that this type of practice was about freeing the mind of thoughts altogether, and it resulted in an unbalanced ratio of shamatha and vipassana. As a result of this, my mind space will easily become almost totally devoid of activity if the shamatha aspect starts to dominate.
These days my mind space seems to be fluctuating on a very subtle frequency. Thoughts that arise are short lived (even vanishing before they are fully formed) and do not have much momentum and most of the time there might not even be any clear thoughts present but some kind of undercurrent of fragmentary and vague half formed mind stuff. Sometimes the fluctuation slips under the radar completely, so that no mind activity is seen, but I am still feeling the vibration of that process going on in the body.
Following this activity with unwavering attention is the union of shamatha and vipassana as it brings the emptiness [1] aspect of the mind's essential nature very clear to me.
Investigation of that precision is of course not possible off the cushion. Most of the time it is enough to just keep on paying attention to the mind consciousness and the recognition of the mind's nature comes automatically. If for some reason that does not happen I am currently using Actualising the Mind's Essence approach as described earlier (post #126) and tuning the mind into the all-pervasiveness of the knowingness that could be described as the infinite internal space of the awareness and using that experience as a reference point when being mindful of all phenomena.
[1] 'Empty of any inherent, substantial, indivisible, separate and unchanging existence.'
- Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche: The ninth Karmapa's Ocean of Definite Meaning, p. 143
- Antero.
- Topic Author
13 years 11 months ago #80419
by Antero.
Replied by Antero. on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
Woke up at 2:00 am and started to do open awareness meditation in bed. At some point I fell asleep but recognized the dream perceptions for what they are: mind stuff manifesting itself in various forms. I continued to meditate in dream while the dream characters acted around me. There were no major differences between meditating in dream and while awake: the undercurrent of fragmentary thought fluctuation seemed to be very similar.
- Antero.
- Topic Author
13 years 11 months ago #80420
by Antero.
The Union of Shamatha and Vipassana
When the dividing line between thought occurrence and stillness dissolves when being completely aware of the mind space; this is the union of shamatha and vipassana.
Replied by Antero. on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
The Union of Shamatha and Vipassana
When the dividing line between thought occurrence and stillness dissolves when being completely aware of the mind space; this is the union of shamatha and vipassana.
- Antero.
- Topic Author
13 years 10 months ago #80421
by Antero.
Being aware of awareness is by far the most effortless, inclusive and effective way of mindfulness that I have practiced so far and there does not seem to be any limits to how far one can take it. Every sense perception, arising thought or mental image is a potential reminder that everything is spontaneously arising and infinitely self cognizing field of awareness. And not only a reminder, but also a vivid manifestation of that reality that is becoming more and more concrete with time. This experience has started to continue more regularity to dream consciousness as well as waking and dreaming awareness has turned out to be identical in every way.
Replied by Antero. on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
Being aware of awareness is by far the most effortless, inclusive and effective way of mindfulness that I have practiced so far and there does not seem to be any limits to how far one can take it. Every sense perception, arising thought or mental image is a potential reminder that everything is spontaneously arising and infinitely self cognizing field of awareness. And not only a reminder, but also a vivid manifestation of that reality that is becoming more and more concrete with time. This experience has started to continue more regularity to dream consciousness as well as waking and dreaming awareness has turned out to be identical in every way.
- Antero.
- Topic Author
13 years 10 months ago #80422
by Antero.
Replied by Antero. on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
Evidence of subtle clinging
* Unconscious preference to certain forms, for example when seeing a beautiful person, the eyes return to that sight with no conscious thought.
* Arising mental images of past experiences when seeing objects or persons.
* Preferring pleasant experiences over unpleasant ones. Cold and warm showers are both equally seen to be manifestations of empty mind, but I still prefer a warm one.
* Conceptual thoughts making the distinction between I and other.
Edited to add:
* Doubt thoughts
* Having to check the awareness or using any other technique to stay mindful
* Trying to come up with conceptual ideas and theories about the non-conceptual awareness
* Unconscious preference to certain forms, for example when seeing a beautiful person, the eyes return to that sight with no conscious thought.
* Arising mental images of past experiences when seeing objects or persons.
* Preferring pleasant experiences over unpleasant ones. Cold and warm showers are both equally seen to be manifestations of empty mind, but I still prefer a warm one.
* Conceptual thoughts making the distinction between I and other.
Edited to add:
* Doubt thoughts
* Having to check the awareness or using any other technique to stay mindful
* Trying to come up with conceptual ideas and theories about the non-conceptual awareness
- Antero.
- Topic Author
13 years 10 months ago #80423
by Antero.
Replied by Antero. on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
When the mindfulness on awareness is complete
No self reflection is possible
Awareness of self does not happen
No conceptual thoughts arise at all
Everything is mind
No self reflection is possible
Awareness of self does not happen
No conceptual thoughts arise at all
Everything is mind
- cmarti
- Topic Author
13 years 10 months ago #80424
by cmarti
Amen!
Replied by cmarti on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
Amen!
- WF566163
- Topic Author
13 years 10 months ago #80425
by WF566163
Replied by WF566163 on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
Thanks for your continued descriptions, Antero.
- Antero.
- Topic Author
13 years 10 months ago #80426
by Antero.
Replied by Antero. on topic RE: Antero's practice journal 4
@WF566163:
Thanks Bill!
Progression of Mindfulness
1. At first the mindfulness of the awareness is vigorous and effort is required to maintain it. One easily forgets to apply the method during the day and a building sense of pressure is felt in the forehead as a result of striving.
Mindful moments are experienced as a sequence of separate events of clarity.
2. Sensations, emotions and thoughts act as reminders to be mindful and recognition of the empty nature of everything that arises happens effortlessly. The nature of the mind is identified and greeted like an old friend.
All prominent perceptions (and when the mindfulness is strong even the subtle ones) activate the awareness automatically.
3. Effortless mindfulness of the awareness is integrated with everyday experience giving rise to a continuous transcended mind state. The mindfulness is not really lost at any time and it happens spontaneously and continuously in the background regardless of what one is doing: reading, writing, talking and the level of mindfulness increases when it comes to the foreground.
At this point the mindfulness starts to consistently happen in dream state as it mirrors (but lags behind) the waking development.
The potential for development is infinite even at this stage.
Thanks Bill!
Progression of Mindfulness
1. At first the mindfulness of the awareness is vigorous and effort is required to maintain it. One easily forgets to apply the method during the day and a building sense of pressure is felt in the forehead as a result of striving.
Mindful moments are experienced as a sequence of separate events of clarity.
2. Sensations, emotions and thoughts act as reminders to be mindful and recognition of the empty nature of everything that arises happens effortlessly. The nature of the mind is identified and greeted like an old friend.
All prominent perceptions (and when the mindfulness is strong even the subtle ones) activate the awareness automatically.
3. Effortless mindfulness of the awareness is integrated with everyday experience giving rise to a continuous transcended mind state. The mindfulness is not really lost at any time and it happens spontaneously and continuously in the background regardless of what one is doing: reading, writing, talking and the level of mindfulness increases when it comes to the foreground.
At this point the mindfulness starts to consistently happen in dream state as it mirrors (but lags behind) the waking development.
The potential for development is infinite even at this stage.
