Jacki's journal

If I may ask this -- how long have you been practicing formally? This practice thread seems as if it's sort of rambling all over -- Zen, zazen, kasina practice, concentration, jhanas, and so on. What's your objective, JackWick? Do you have a teacher? A regular sangha?

Thanks in advance.

You may ask. That's fine. I started formal practice on 8th January (about 6 weeks ago). The zen thing was a group i went to check out. i want people to practice with, find a teacher etc. So I don't have a sangha or teacher. You are so right that I am rambling all over. I prefer, though, to think of it as finding my feet! My objective is to get enlightened -- or at least some of the way.

If you want to give me any ideas or tips, that's really what i am after so please do. I've had a few tips from a few different people. But still figuring things out. I did a course at a tibetan buddhist place a few years back, so that was my introduction.
Thanks cmarti,
Jacki.

So which tradition do you find suits you better? You have dabbled in a few now. Is there one that seems to be more promising? Also, I'm curious about how you found this message board and what attracts you to it.

Thanks again... thought I only have more questions for you at this point.

questions are OK, i don't mind.

I like this 'pragmatic dharma' movement, if that's the right expression for it, by which i mean this dharma coming from kenneth and daniel ingram etc. it rings true. i want to make progress, and i believe this movement, based on noting and so forth, from the theravada tradition, is useful.

i also like zen, because i think of zen as buddhism for introverts/intellectuals, people stuck inside their own heads. so i like that. i think zen respects peoples' natural way of getting enlightened.

goenka vipassana is a really well set up for retreats. i'm slightly uncomfortable though with the sort of guru worship of goenka and the fact that instruction is by DVD's of him. because he wants the teachings to stay 'pure', that is his reasoning for keeping himself as the teacher by DVD. it doesn't quite sit right with me.

but you know honestly, among these different options, it's the practical issues as much as anything. e.g., i want to go to some kind of mediation gathering each week. but i can only really do that on sunday nights. and it just so happens that the ordinary mind zen group meeting is on sunday nights, so... plus i do like it! the teacher there is a really nice unflappable sort of guy.

i'm glad you asked me this question about which tradition suits better. you made me think about it more consciously.

as to how i found KFD... i did a ten day goenka retreat in january. on the advice of a friend. and the time just happened to work out as my ex-hubby was taking the kids on a holiday. i was so profoundly affected that when i got back i searched far & wide on the net for something. first of all, i found daniel ingrams message board and his book and then The Hamilton Project, and then KFD, among other things. so i am kind of like this sudden convert to serious dharma.

and you see, there are so many suggestions about practice, so there are different things to try and so on. but yes, i'm a little lost. i think i'll go practice now! watching the breath and noting.

thanks for your questions. it's ok to ask more.

Just had a late morning sit of 1 hour.

started with counting breaths,1 to 10. realised my concentration was bad when i over-ran a few times. i thought i'd better stay with counting breaths and this meant poor concentration and that my mind would wander. so i kept doing that. started getting my head twisting to the right. in fact when i was driving home from school this morning, and taking a moment at the traffic lights, this started happening. so anyway, it was no great surprise. so my head gets pulled to the right, then down and across and my head is like being pulled straight down towards the ground. i get pulled forward onto the ground. several times in this session i ended up face planting the carpet. i had to stay with trying to count breaths and watch the breath because this pulling of my body was very distracting. i often overran my counting, one time all the way to 14. a few times i stopped counting because i was obviously distracted. had only a few very brief periods of getting a decent look at the sensations of the breath. also felt pressure on my head, and in my face, like i have had before. and accompanying headachyness. only in the last 5 or 10 minutes did i get a little bit of sense of peace, but it was far from quality. so i just tried to note all of this.

yesterday when i had a session i also had poor concentration. couldn't manage counting to 10 three times. i've never had this happen before so conc is obviously on a slump. that's all part of the ride so i just have to keep sitting i guess.

p.s. dream last night of having some kind of release, lights and then lots of tingles. but felt like not a full release. like one wants to happen but can't quite manage it.

Re: what Chris was saying about choosing one practice/focusing: (keeping in mind that advice is specific to you, not necessarily the same for everyone) I would suggest it doesn't matter too much right now which of the various practices you do - it's more important that you pick one, and just do one. The reason is that if you do one particular practice in the same way for 4-6 weeks or more, you actually learn something, become better at it, and become better able to see what's going on. It may be then that a different practice would become more suitable. But if you jump around doing a bit of this and that, you don't get any depth. You aren't committing to one practice for the rest of your life, just trying to calm down and focus so you can make some progress. I'd also (again, in your case, based on your journal) recommend keeping in mind gentleness, calmness. You can count to 10, watch the breath or whatever technique and do it calmly and gently and make great progress. Progress is not dependent on pounding on yourself like you are trying to hammer through a prison wall. It doesn't make things go faster to strain and whip yourself into a frenzy, it just makes it hurt more.

OK, got it, gentleness & calmness and put the hammer away.

while you're here, perhaps you could answer something for me.

the practice i seem most naturally drawn towards is where i just sit and look at my own headspace and observe things in the body and mind as they come up. this is very prone to mind wandering i would add. sometimes for ages before i notice.

do you think that would actually pass as a practice?

or am i just fluffing around and would be better off with something more structured?

if you don't feel like you can't really answer this question, that's OK.

I think that sounds a bit fluffy. Sorry to say. There is a time for "just sitting" but the beginning is not a good time for it, because of the tendency to wander around in daydreams, thoughts, wondering about this and that. That's why practices like being very attentive to the sensation of the breath going in and out or using noting words (see Kenneths' noting instructions, for example) are the best for beginners. You have to learn to keep a sort of sharp attention on the present moment - the exact present moment - like a cat watching a mousehole or a hunter sighting down the arrow or rifle at the target. If you've ever done target sports, there's no tension there, but a total relaxed focus. A time comes when that focus becomes so much more natural that one can begin to sit with broad awareness and watch everything arising and passing, but that needs to develop by itself, and that usually takes many months or more of practice, and even then at times there are phases where one may fall into distraction etc and return to a more structured technique to stabilize attention. Does that help?

yes, it helps

1 hr 20 min sit.

i seem to finally have been convinced to note. started in the simplest way possible --- noting "in" and "out" on the breath. paying attention to upper stomach area. did this for an hour.

then i let myself do "freestyle" meditation, which is more like seeing what sensations arise, and noting them. i was very relaxed after an hour of straight breathing. so i felt really good. soon started to feel a bit like my mind state was changing. into a place of greater equanimity but also a bit woolly. soon started to feel pressure in my head at the top. then pressure on my face and various places. also itching and stuff like that. noted all of this. then a brief jaw sensation then neck then twisting slightly to left then to right. then head down and back to the middle and and down until stomach ended up on the floor. so tried to note all of this. i've seen shinzen young's youtube videos on kriyas (which this would seem to be). he mentioned paying attention to it and the sensations that arise when it starts. i think it is related to fear. i felt a sense of fear.

40 min
i was a bit out of it this morning in my meditation session. i had dental work yesterday and last night took pain relief medication.
i tried to focus on the breath and note. however, i couldn't feel the breath in the abdomen hardly at all and so my mind kept wandering. so i switched to focus on the sensations in my nose/mouth. my focus wasn't so great. but never the less, it was somewhat there.
yesterday i read a wonderful little piece about jhana. it is here:

www.angelfire.com/electronic/awakening101/janas.html

i was pointed to it by a writer on DhO in a great piece here:

www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discu...ards/message/1191517

I found this very helpful because i have seen myself that when i get into a place of concentration, if i get some sort of pleasant distraction, like music, or birds chirping, i get a rush of tingly pleasure and lights and things happening. So i said to myself --- a ha! so that is the first jhana!

So, following on from the advice given here, after meditating on the breath & noting for a little while, maybe 15 minutes, i tried a fake smile. it didn't really work. except it sort of did, because a couple of moments later, the pleasure came, from the gently blowing breeze coming in through the open window, and the sounds, etc. i took my attention away from the breath when this started, so that i could explore this state. it did take effort. what is said about this is so true. yet a lot of pleasure & joy. meditated like this until my alarm went off after 40 minutes. didn't want to get up off the cushion, but had to. legs felt like jelly. good feeling stayed quite a while. i think it's still here some 3 and 1/2 hrs later.

so i think my plan for my meditation is to do noting on the breath until i'm relaxed and breath is very subtle and then see if i can slip into this state. i'd like

to explore this and stabilise things and get to a good place for doing insight practice. i was still noting the breath a bit in the jhana but not really properly. i was really focusing on the feelings and my mental state. as i understand it, this is necessarily in order to develop this jhana.

this new understanding and experience has made me keen to practice, which i will sneak off and do shortly.

any advice or tips more than welcome.

BTW. in my meditation yesterday (which i haven't written about), i had some of the facial pressure and so on which has always preceded my kriya, but not the full on kriya experience. i didn't have it at all today. i'm glad about this. i know one ought to seek to avoid either attachment or aversion to kriya, but still, i'd rather not have it...

As I begin to write this, I feel strangely elated. More on that later. So... spent today at a 1-day goenka retreat. you know i look forward to these things but they are hard. i spent the vast majority of the time watching the breath and noting "rise", "fall" or, for variety, "in", "out". when doing vipassana (i.e. sweeping) i was keeping half an eye on the breath as well. actually my vipassana was pathetic because i was having fun scanning my brain. this has always felt very disconcerting. then i read on here recently that you can find your "i" spot kind of by looking at your brain. but i didn't muck around like this for long. i think i managed to establish a decent state of 1st jhana (and possibly some 2nd), even though my head felt woolly. i have been lax lately and not keeping up with my yoga exercises for my back. so it's been really sore. so that was an added challenge.

when my mind wandered, i often found it gravitating to these sorts of thoughts/feelings of anger and blame that i have concerning certain people. i really saw how deep they are in me in the sense of being hard to disidentify with. so i spent some time telling myself i am not those thoughts. i wasn't entirely convincing but i think it helped.

fast forward to tonight, and i decide to hit the cushion again. my kids are with my ex-hubby so today was a great chance to get some focussed practice in. so i'm watching the breath again, and noting other things too from time to time. then i get a swirly tickle on my cheeks, and i think to myself, it's funny how with the meditation, you just look at these sensations until you actually realise that they are impermanent. then it went black. just for a sec. i thought, oh, something funny happening with the power? then it did it again, for a shorter time, then maybe once more very quickly and right afterwards.

then i got a surge of emotion that was half excitement half freaking-out. i kept meditating and noticed that my head felt like someone had come along and chopped the top off. i mean, really, more the front part, from the fontanelle to just above the eyebrows. sliced it right off. this was funny. i felt like i'd been left with only my lizard brain. or perhaps really more like with the brain of my dog faithfully lying on the floor next to me. it was a tingly feeling of where it had been sliced.

so anyway, feeling odd. going to hit MCTB and find out what that was - the complete blackness. or maybe i should check with the neighbours if there were any strange momentary black outs tonight.

good morning/afternoon/evening. (all three at once depending where you are)

50 min late morning meditation.

have been doing a little bit of noting in daily life (just a bit) and coming to grips with it. helpful discussion threat has cleared some things up. anyway, began with a brief metta session. then sitting there for a bit and beginning to note breath and sometimes other things. after a short time the lights are coming and i find myself to be meditating in a place of not-trying which is great peace. still feeling tingles around where my head got partially decapitated a couple of days ago. note that this is nice. brain feels a bit like jelly so i can't note very well. i forgot to note that my brain felt like jelly. later on noticed that i had some sensation on my forehead again. noted disappointment because frankly i think things are better after my brain surgery. don't want the old stuff back. half way through, had to change position, then afterwards some head tension came up and not in same place as before. eventually my head was pulled to the left (it's usually the right) and then down and back to the middle. so i'm sitting normally at this point but with head pulled down. again get pulled onto floor in a serpentine kind of movement. note disappointment because i thought kriya was gone. don't have a sense of the driving emotion or whatever behind it, it just feels a bit unpleasant. lay on the floor for a bit breathing in the carpet. feel incredibly tired. end my session at 50 mins (i had set the timer for 55). had a little lay down for 10 minutes then felt alright. but i do feel leaden in my limbs. big effort to do things. felt this yesterday too.

i guess it's dark night time for me, brothers and sisters. wish me luck. better get myself a teacher. i've wanted to think that i had attained path. such a great thought. in daniel's book he says A&P is often confused with path.

cos i've felt a bit less reactive. and kind of with a touch of giddy happiness. not really full on or anything. but anyways, things march forward, and progress is inevitable.

by the way, how can i know if it was even A&P. i'm talking here of what i reported in my posts 38 & 39. probably it's the case.

it's all by the bye, so bye for now.

Hi Jacki,

>by the way, how can i know if it was even A&P. i'm talking here of what i reported in my posts 38 & 39. probably it's the case.

I'm by no means an expert on this, but I have gone through this a few times myself. I've read through your journal, and when I now I hear you describe head tension along with head movements, physical unpleasantness, tiredness, and energy sensations, I see that as much more like Three Characteristics rather than like A&P or Path.

Daniel describes this in MCTB, excerpted here from www.interactivebuddha.com/Mastering%20Adobe%20Version.pdf
page 173, "3. The Three Characteristics"

"There may be odd bodily twistings, obsession with posture, and
painful tensions or strange other sensations, particularly in the back,
neck, jaw and shoulders. These tensions may persist when not
meditating and be quite irritating and even debilitating. The rhomboid
and trapezius muscles are the most common offenders. It is common to
try to sit with good posture and then find one's body twisting into some
odd and painful position. You straighten out, and soon enough it does it
again. That's a very Three Characteristics sort of pattern."

While likely not A&P or Path, it is, however, good news: you are describing signs of progress.

In any case, even if I'm mistaken, the instructions would still be the same. Keep noting everything that comes up, and keep investigating the 3 characteristics of each sensation.

Good work. Keep it up!

I agree. Most likely 3rd nana. You will know when its A&P, for most people, not all, it is kind of a "holy S*&t" kind of moment and you have less doubts about things. Mine was pretty mild compared to most but it definately made me say "Whoa this stuff is very real!!"

PS - kriyas will become your friends. They tend to come around regularly for years. Think of it as a massage.

i had my "holy s*&t" experience about 6 weeks ago on retreat. it was incredible and you can't even really describe these things. it was profound bliss that became too painful followed by profound awareness. about an hour long experience. i'd just spent the day doing anapana. it was day 1 at a goenka retreat in january. i'd never really meditated before that. goenka was giving his nightly dharma talk. things he said sunk in. the experience was huge. as i was having the experience, i thought, 'so this is what it's like to be a buddha'. i wanted to run off and join a monastery. i figure it must have been an A&P cos there's nothing else for it (is there?). the blinking in and out of blackness and partial head severation (which was a good feeling by the way) that happened a couple of days ago (while meditating in the evening after a 1-day goenka retreat!) was something significant but completely different to the previous big event.

also my high energy level and lack of need for sleep, both totally out of character for me, has subsided back to normal over the past week or two. also my tidiness and organisational level was amazing and is now back to normal. so something has happened.

best to keep practising.

i'm sitting here writing (obviously) and it's about 10 mins since my session finished. my kriya is still trying to twist me up a bit.

30min + 55mins

had 30 min session earlier this morning. started with watching breath and noting. after a while noticed the line marking where my head had imaginarily got cut off, was migrating downwards. eventually it seemed to go all the way to the very base of the skull at the spine. then kriya kind of snapped my head forward (could feel it strongly in my upper spine). then the rest of me thrown forward. ended up on floor. note that when this happens, i'm still sitting on my meditation stool, it's just the front of me pushed forward.

just finished longer sit. started off with watching the breath and noting. all pretty ok for about 10 minutes. then had head twisting. then shoulders twisting the same way (new experience), then twisting further down the back. this was to the left. then same thing to the right. it's like my kriya is giving my spine a really good twist, starting high (at the neck with the head twisting to one side), then moving down. it was very systematic. ended with right hand on floor behind me, twisted quite strongly to the right. waited a while then tried to get up. if this thing isn't finished, then you can't get it to let go. so it just takes you back where you were. then i got twisted kind of back over, arching backwards, with both hands on the ground. still sitting on my stool.

this thing is a total yoga workout. and if it aint finished when the session is over then it doesn't just stop because you've stopped meditating.

during this i noted the breath and just tried to note the experience. i have to say though that it's awfully distracting from trying to focus on the fine detail of sensations.

60 min session this morning

started as usual with watching the breath. after about 2 minutes the kriya started. it is really giving me a workout. it is an amazing yoga session. now i know how yoga was invented. the kriya is centred around my spine. i've had other experiences which i think are probably also kriya, which feel like a sort of movement of a solid body through the head or body. this one is totally focused on giving my spine a workout. it seems so thorough as if it were planned out. the muscles contract by themselves and create the movement. it's pretty amazing. my muscles in my back are actually sore today, as if from exercise, from the "yoga" session yesterday. but sore in that nice way that reminds you you've exercised well.

so it exercised me again today. head flipped straight down forward, hard forward. held like this for several minutes. then the upper body, bending at the waist, forced down forward. try to get up off the floor before it lets you, and you're flipped back down there again. it's pretty incredible. i've basically had a problem with sore back muscles near my spine since i was about 16. so i think this can't be a bad thing.
there's no doubt though that it makes regular sort of meditation quite challenging. like gently watching for things to arise and pass. it's much more active and intense.
all i can do is try to note the sensations.
i wonder what creature is trapped inside my spine and trying to get out. like the creature from alien or something. it detects that i've gone into concentration and off it goes. it must feed on certain brain waves.

i have been wanting to get into watching sensations besides physical, like mind states and thoughts... i am figuring out how to do this. and the awareness of this happens off the cushion too. i am becoming more aware too of craving and aversion, and seeing that aversion is different to "unpleasantness".
i have numerous people on this forum to thank for helping me sort out noting.

my skull/head things have settled a bit. i did get a very localised spot of headache above my left eye today. but no more head kriya, by which i mean a movement through my head rather than something static and tense.

i have been meaning to thank giragirasol and aquanin and andymr for giving me help recently. i really appreciate it.

bye for now

Glad we could help. However, I am still not sure where you are, but it doesn't matter. Just keep doing what you are doing (noting all sensations) and things will become more clear.