Emptiness Almost Within Reach

Mostly first two foundations, as you can see. Some mind-states and thoughts objectified, but mostly sensations and feeling tones.

Later on got into some more subtle pulses. They were at the finger tips. Definitely fit the "smooth continuous" of "analog." (See Kenneth's earlier post.) At first seemed like one sensation arising and passing away rhythmically. That one got stronger and stronger. And then another, lighter sensation showed up following the first. Didn't seem like sub-pulses, though, exactly. More like part two of two: following what seemed to be a solid whole, but was in fact part one of two paired sensations. And then sometimes the first one didn't show up at all. I can't really say, but I wonder whether or not that was what you meant by a "hard stop," Kenneth. It wasn't a lapse in mindfulness, it just seemed that first there was a clear sense of a pattern, and then it appeared that the pattern had gaps in it, for lack of a better way to describe it. Maybe not insight related. Hard to tell.

"It wasn't a lapse in mindfulness, it just seemed that first there was a clear sense of a pattern, and then it appeared that the pattern had gaps in it, for lack of a better way to describe it. Maybe not insight related."-RyGuy

Anything discontinuous is fertile ground for investigation! Definitely insight related.

Great reports. Wonderful.

Sitting conditions have been less than ideal lately: busyness, strange locations, kind of a "getting it while I can," kind of thing. Has its drawbacks, and its benefits, oddly enough.

Sat here reading people's practice journals (there are so many new ones I hadn't been aware of....what a cool place!)

Then decided to take a break and watch whatever came up.

Noticed something about the flutterings just now. It's like there's an 'activity zone running horizontally across eyes and forehead, and movement to the inside and outside within this zone, a pair for each eye. Buz buzz buzz in towards each side of the nose, then reset out to the edges, left and right. Then it starts over. Then, when the flutters get softer and quieter and slower, this movement transforms into a wave movement, cresting around the third eye region. Sometimes there's a little pulse there, sometimes tension builds there with each wave, and sometimes it goes away entirely, and we're back to the 'activity zone' horizontal buzzing, and the pulses are at the outer end of each zone, near the temples.

That's all for now. Practice, practice, practice!

I've posted this quote before earlier on my practice thread, but it's become highly relevant for me, personally, so I'm posting it again:

"Comfort is not a goal worthy of your sincerest efforts."

- Steve Armstrong

Really excellent talk by Andrea Fella. I highly recommend it.

Scroll down to Dukkha (Part 2)

www.audiodharma.org/teacher/2/

Hour long sit.

Recording: Fluttering, fluttering, pleasant, tension, twisting, pressure, anticipation, fluttering, imagining thought, remembering thought, swallowing, wetness-unpleasant, heat-unpleasant, hearing, judging thought, remembering thought, pressure-unpleasant, sharpness-unpleasant, tension-unpleasant, pressure-neutral, wetness-unpleasant, coolness-pleasant, expansion-pleasant, twisting-unpleasant, twisting-unpleasant, fluttering-pleasant, tension-unpleasant, release of tension-pleasant, tension-unpleasant, judging thought, remembering thought, remembering thought, remembering thought, remembering thought, imagining thought, yawning, remembering thought, remembering thought, remembering thought, coolness-pleasant, tension-unpleasant, coolness-pleasant, tension, twisting-unpleasant, pressure-unpleasant, sharpness-unpleasant, tension-unpleasant, twisting- neutral, heat-unpleasant, wetness-unpleasant, wetness-unpleasant, dullness, tension-unpleasant, tension-unpleasnt, yawning-pleasant, stretching-pleasant, fluttering, heat-unpleasant, unpleasant, irritiation, impatience, pleasure, touching, pleasure, tensing-unpleasant, tensing-unpleasant, tension-unpleasant tension-unpleasant, twisting, twisting, twisting, coolness-pleasant, coolness-pleasant, tension-unpleasant, yawning, imagining thought, frustration, sharpness-unpleasant, tension-unpleasant, tension-unpleasant, tension-neutral, touching-neutral, heat-unpleasant, tickling-unpleasant, tension-unpleasant, tension, tension-unpleasant, twisting, squinting, hearing, looking, seeing, thinking, imagining thought, remembering thought, yawning, hearing-irritation, silence-pleasant, coolness-pleasant, wetness-unpleasant, pleasant.

At this point dropped noting/recording,

Continued below:

The rest here are recollection-based practices notes, thoughts of progress, identification, intention to note, practice thoughts, desire for stream-entry, searching, investigating, frustration, pulsing, fluttering, calm, coughing, arms flailing, shaking, coughing, fear, thoughts of death, pulsing, absence of pulsing, pulsing, anxiety, tension, release of tension, calm, stability, fluttering, waves, pulses, rest, waves, pulses, stability, calm, pleasure, desire for absorption, tension, release of tension, contraction, softness, hardness, expansion, pleasure, contraction, tension, anticipation, lightness, imaging, body sensation, pulsing, pulsing, skip, pulsing, butt, head, butt, head, butt, head, back, head, face, head, head, head, hand, head, leg, head, foot, head, hand, head, pulse, pulse, tension.

Ryan, most of the noting you've recorded here is great, but the part where you note body parts, e.g., " pulsing, butt, head, butt, head," etc., is not likely to be effective. That's because the noting has three main functions:

1) Keeps you on track by giving you a feedback loop. (If you stop noting, that in itself can be a sign that you have wandered off track, giving you the heads-up that it's time to re-focus.)
2) Helps you be sure that you have clearly objectified and and therefore dis-embedded from what you are noting.
3) Keeps the mind engaged to the point where there is no processing power left for suffering.

Noting body parts works all right for number 1, is questionable for number 2, and fails completely for number 3; it is possible to note body parts with a fraction of the mind while the rest of the mind wanders all over the place, spinning scenarios, running a commentary, and randomly suffering.

Stick to noting the sensations themselves and you will be fine. It is similar to the way we don't note the things we see as in "book, red, computer, chair," etc, but rather the interaction with the mind: "seeing, seeing." Similarly, you don't note "bird, chirping," or "family, shouting," you note "hearing, pleasant, unpleasant, worry, annoyance, happiness, joy," etc.

All of us have been labeling objects without dis-embedding from them throughout lives (any child can identify the objects in the room), so noting in meditation has to include the extra component of seeing the way our minds interact with the phenomenon. In other words, noting is more of a second person activity than a first or third person activity. It's in the space between subject and object that the leverage is gained.

You inspire me to keep going, Ryguy.

Your dilligence and drive are impressive.

Andrew

New insights to share from my experience: There are phenomena. None are particularly important, BUT to remain aware of the "now" stuff, again and again, is important. Why? Just because (for lack of better words) something, somewhere doesn't like ignorance. On the other hand, something somewhere does like to know/be known. Disembedding from a sense of meditating can be very helpful. Lessens expectations and allows space for seeing what is, rather than what ought to happen when meditating.

Other helpful notes, from my experience (though they didn't arise like this): a sense of I, a desire for progress, thoughts of stream entry, a sense of not-I, a craving for release, a craving for suffering, surrender, effort, a sense of I - again, despair, pride, boredom, tiredness, intention to induce fluttering, intention to become absorbed, desire for cessation, exasperation, feelings of failure, feelings of success.

More insights from my experience: searching for escape through any of these sensations prevents seeing other sensations. Disembedding from that search for an escape hatch can allow better seeing of sensations. Disembedding from any object lessens the sense that it is an enemy. Disembedding from an object lessens that sense that it "belongs to me". Disembedding from feelings of success opens up a wider range of sensations to be experienced as success. Disembedding from feelings of failure illuminates feelings of I, as well as feelings of fear, as well as feelings of surrender. Disembedding from feelings of surrender lessens drowsiness, as well as a preference for surrender over effort (maybe experienced as aversion to effort arising, change, tension, contraction, investigation, harshness, roughness, unpleasantness). Disembedding from feelings of effort lessens holding back, as well as fears of change, pleasure, openness, space, and insecurity.

Edit: Extra word deleted.

"You inspire me to keep going, Ryguy.

Your dilligence and drive are impressive."


Thanks, Seekr. Let's get this thing done!

"...The part where you note body parts, e.g., " pulsing, butt, head, butt, head," etc., is not likely to be effective. That's because the noting has three main functions:

1) Keeps you on track by giving you a feedback loop. (If you stop noting, that in itself can be a sign that you have wandered off track, giving you the heads-up that it's time to re-focus.)
2) Helps you be sure that you have clearly objectified and and therefore dis-embedded from what you are noting.
3) Keeps the mind engaged to the point where there is no processing power left for suffering.

Noting body parts works all right for number 1, is questionable for number 2, and fails completely for number 3; it is possible to note body parts with a fraction of the mind while the rest of the mind wanders all over the place, spinning scenarios, running a commentary, and randomly suffering....

......Noting in meditation has to include the extra component of seeing the way our minds interact with the phenomenon. In other words, noting is more of a second person activity than a first or third person activity. It's in the space between subject and object that the leverage is gained."


Thanks, Kenneth. This is very helpful clarification. I've had a feeling some of my noting wasn't 'doing the trick', so I'm glad to get this out into the open.

In case it's helpful for further instruction, though, I'll clarify about the "pulsing, butt, head, but, head, etc." stuff. These weren't noting labels I was using, but rather descriptions post-facto of where I recalled attention going (i.e. what I recalled arising and passing away). At that point there was this back and forth with not-head objects and then a sensation like a magnetic draw back to the head.

Ryguy,

Could it be the formation of the self in action (i.e. the self is associated with sensations in the head and this back and forth is part of the creating of a sense of an observer to whatever is being looked at).

"Could it be the formation of the self in action (i.e. the self is associated with sensations in the head and this back and forth is part of the creating of a sense of an observer to whatever is being looked at)."-Mumuwu

At the risk of being a wet blanket, Mu, I worry that this line of inquiry may propel Ryan (and others) into a whole new spiral of unproductive speculation. Ideas about what may comprise the sense of self do not lead to awakening. But noting does!

Keep noting, everyone, and may I presume to offer this bit of guidance:

There are no conclusions to be drawn. You can stop trying to own this and let it be.

Affectionately,

Kenneth

"Ryguy,

Could it be the formation of the self in action (i.e. the self is associated with sensations in the head and this back and forth is part of the creating of a sense of an observer to whatever is being looked at)."


Could be....hmm....

Oh, right! Haha. Of course there's no 'meta-person' creating a "person".

(I.e. Don't be like Eeyore and resign yourself to never seeing through delusion, but at the same time don't blame yourself for having a sense of self.)

"
Could be....hmm....

Oh, right! Haha. Of course there's no 'meta-person' creating a "person".

(I.e. Don't be like Eeyore and resign yourself to never seeing through delusion, but at the same time don't blame yourself for having a sense of self.)

"


Hmm...I don't know what to make of this post, in light of Kenneth's wet blanketing. ; )

*Shrugs* Amusement, pressure, tightness, seeing, touching, remembering thought, confidence, curiosity, dullness, tensing, coolness, warmth, irritation, disinterest, tension, investigating thought, sharpness, shaking, coolness, fatigue.

""Could it be the formation of the self in action (i.e. the self is associated with sensations in the head and this back and forth is part of the creating of a sense of an observer to whatever is being looked at)."-Mumuwu

At the risk of being a wet blanket, Mu, I worry that this line of inquiry may propel Ryan (and others) into a whole new spiral of unproductive speculation. Ideas about what may comprise the sense of self do not lead to awakening. But noting does!

Keep noting, everyone, and may I presume to offer this bit of guidance:

There are no conclusions to be drawn. You can stop trying to own this and let it be.

Affectionately,

Kenneth"

This is the sort of pointer that frees me up to simply do the practice.

Thanks Kenneth.

Sat for 30 minutes.

I remembered something I'd read in the Basic Meditation Instructions Kenneth wrote for this site, and felt inspired to change my noting technique pretty radically today, as a result. Rather than merely noting whatever arose and then waiting for something new, I noted the sensation for as long as I was aware of it. If it arose again and again, then I noted it as many times. I also varied the speed and volume of the noting, in order to a) catch as many sensations as I could, and b) allow the noting to fade into the background and the sensations themselves to be more apparent.

This change had two effects. Staying with something through until the end, I could see it - well, until the end, until it changed into something else, or until something else arose elsewhere entirely and took center stage. This allowed the "wheel" of gross and subtle to become hugely obvious. It also allowed the noting to fade more gradually and taper off with a sensation, rather than cutting it off prematurely. Or rather, I should say, noting repeatedly and in a modulated fashion allowed the grossness of a sensation to fade into subtlety, and then I more often caught the start of both subtlety and grossness, rather than being surprised by it. In other words, things flowed.

I don't think it's necessary to transcribe the recording itself, as I've done in the past, but the general gist of it was something like: "fluttering, fluttering, fluttering, fluttering, tension, tension, tension, tension, tension, tension, tension, sharpness, sharpness, sharpness, rapture, rapture, rapture, twisting, twisting, aversion, aversion, aversion, aversion, aversion, coolness, expansion, coolness, expansion, contraction, pressure."

Kenneth, to direct a question right to you, do you have any comments / tweaks / warnings / appreciations / pointers / suggestions / questions for me about this way?

I've been on vacation the past few days with old friends, and haven't practiced for long stretches of time, but often times I'll sit down or just rest standing somewhere, and momentarily close my eyes, just out of curiosity to kind of see 'where I'm at,' and often either my torso will jerk or my eyes will flutter.

On a bus ride yesterday I sat and couldn't really immerse fully, because the contortions look too weird and I didn't want to freak out the other passengers. So, instead I just rested and let the flutters do their thing. They were pretty light and with little to no effort my eyes would flutter and roll back into the 'vipassana eye pose' and then rest down in the 'samatha eye pose' and then go back up, and then back down.

But these movements tend to bypass the sweet spot when I'm letting them alternate involuntarily. My mind only finds that middle ground when I'm bringing more conscious effort to the practice.

Unfortunately for these odd practice environments, applying conscious effort always brings on the weird twisting and things. So, now that I'm back from vacation, I'm going to reestablish formal practice at home, where I can twist and shake and writhe to my heart's content. : )

I'd like to chime in on the "you perceive what you expect" thread.

Right now there's tightness and pressure and tension and fluttering and hearing and anxious thoughts and fearful thoughts and imagining thoughts and frustration and irritation and calm and expansion and contraction and pressure (and so on).

Among these objects are ones associated with a sense of a self that is not enlightened, has not attained first path, and is doing a practice in order to attain first (through 4th, eventually) path.

Right now there's also a sense of knowing all those objects. In other words, there are sensations that are associated with, classified with knowing.

Right now there's a sense of a self that is doing the knowing and therefore separate from all those objects. Right now there is also a sense that some of these objects are not that sense of self and that others of those objects are that sense of self. In the instant that the sensations associated with knowing arise, there's also a sense that the sense of a self is the knowing of those objects. In other words, right now the sensations that are most closely associated with the sense of knowing are considered to be different than the other sensations, i.e. special somehow, aka a self.

But now there is knowledge of the knowing, and the notion that any of these sensations or any group of sensations clumped together is a "self" becomes weaker and less convincing.

What in the world is going on, then, if there isn't a self knowing these objects, if that knowing is in fact not separate from, not other than the known?

Intellectually, I could say awareness. But I don't see that. Is it even possible for I to see that? Well, I certainly doesn't have the answer to that question! How could I know, when I survives on the unknown?! ; )

EDIT: Typing errors.

Investogated flutters that arose on the train today. Put some time in with the 'eye-pose' practice, and couldn't stabilize very well in the samatha mode. Pulses came and went, mostly in the forehead / third eye region, even with concentration focused on the tranquil mode. So that was that, and then went back to the vipassana mode of flutters, and then just rested when they weren't there. Really nice and chilled out. Very little striving, if any, for what wasn't there. Some attachment to things in particular that were there, but then the attachment (manifesting as tension) became the object. None of it a very big deal. Even the 'success' of that steady, relaxed attitude. Keeping my hand on the tiller, and letting the wind do the rest.

I just wanted to say thank you to Kenneth and everyone else here. I've really been enjoying and grateful for the changes in how I am in the world, thanks to the practice, lately. Simple things like an enhanced ability to watch interactions from a non-self-centered point of view, and behave appropriately (however that comes into focus) for a situation and everyone involved in that given moment. For someone who has spent so much of my life lost in thought and oblivious to that kind of information, the smoothness coming from this change is very welcome.

(and it's great motivation to keep going!)

Thanks, once again.

-Ryan

As a warning to other yogis about how you can spin all kinds of things from information you hear about practice and progress and enlightenment, I'm compelled to share a dream I had recently.

From an email I wrote to Kenneth a little while back:

"A few minutes ago, I was utterly convinced I had attained to first path while dreaming this past night. There IS a cool sense of bliss pervading the body, and it seems to extend a little beyond the boundaries of the body. And there IS an incredible lightness. But I'm suspicious of it all. Or, to be more accurate, strong suspicion arose soon after I sat down to write this report, and that has remained, along with the bliss.

Anyways, I had a dream in which I was practicing, and there was eyeball fluttering, and everything sped up and got very fast, incredibly fast, and then there was a single image of a tree with pine needles that arose, which was very familiar somehow, and very pleasing, and then a little blip in the middle of my head, and then a small, bright, light and then a sensation of openness at the crown of my head, and I woke up and knew what had happened (or thought I knew), and then the cool bliss began and lasted for a while, and I just lay there for what felt like a long while resting in it, and then resolved to attain full enlightenment as soon as possible, and to work to help all beings attain full enlightenment. Now I still feel the bliss, but also dark and unhappy. So, it must have been an A&P event. Or something like that. It was certainly unlike anything I've ever experienced, but that's what progress is, I suppose. ; )

Continued....

Continued from above....

There IS a dramatic reduction in overall stickiness, and a general feeling of deep OKness, and it's all very smooth and tranquil. Tranquility is a huge factor here. But so is a dark lining. I'm a little tickled by all this, at the moment, and a smile emerges upon recalling the whole thing. Surprisingly, for the most part I don't feel bothered by the fact that this seems to have been just an A&P event. There certainly is some disappointment. But I feel so incredibly blissful and like that dark sludge lining is totally livable. There has been a great deal of openness in my body, but I think this was all a joke about the details of fruition and such that I've read about lately on Nikolai's guide on Facebook. It's a little sad, but quite a good joke, nonetheless, to be honest. I feel confident that I can get this done, and also still blissful, and also encouraged by my own ability to spot the dummy (of a fake path moment).

Ok. Back to sleep. "

Eyes glued to this thread!