Mike Monson's practice notes

"That is exactly the thing that turned me off and "drove" me (thankfully) to this practice. Time enough to explore the elegance later, after a Path or two. "

no later.
let's bring our own elegance to the vipassana party.
now.

"Lovely as it can be, the lack of good, practical specific instructions towards a clear-cut goal makes zen lose its allure for me.

(and)

That is exactly the thing that turned me off and "drove" me (thankfully) to this practice. Time enough to explore the elegance later, after a Path or two. "

Oh man, Mike, tomotvos, it's so great to hear you both say this. I've been feeling quite lost in my Zen practice lately and you guys echo my feeling exactly. So glad I found this place, should have jumped in sooner! : )

"Oh man, Mike, tomotvos, it's so great to hear you both say this. I've been feeling quite lost in my Zen practice lately and you guys echo my feeling exactly. So glad I found this place, should have jumped in sooner! : )"

One of the strangest things about being around soto zen centers is that -- at least to me -- everyone is running around pretending that they aren't REALLY there because they want to be HAPPY and ENLIGHTENED god damnit. I mean, come on, who are they trying to fool?

Here, it is very clear that I want to have an awesome life full of bliss and intimacy and insight that keeps getting better and better. I don't have to hide it or be ashamed of it, I don't have to pretend it's happening when it isn't (in other words I can fail all I want and still come back for more help), and I will get specific, CLEAR, helpful instructions on how to do that. Just that, cause what else is there?

"Just that, cause what else is there? "

Ain't nothing else!

And on the flip side, if everyone always acts as if NOTHING'S happening, it's hard to tell whether something might be happening or whether its just my imagination.

That's the tricky thing about Zen. From a highly realized point of view, there is really is nothing to attain, nowhere to go, no one who knows anything, and no one who needs to improve anything. And this is true. But it's not an either/or kind of truth. For, as soon as this truth becomes a concept that a non-realized practitioner carries around, it's not longer useful. If isn't true for them, regardless of whether or not it is ultimately true, it's not worth entertaining.

What you guys are describing is really a kind of spiritual materialism, which is akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic (i.e. pointless). Buy into Zen or Nondualist dogma is not different from buying into conservative Theravadin, or even fundamentalist Christian or Islamic, dogma. It's just another matrix we project over the truth, so that we can feel better about our place in it.

Regardless of one's tradition, the point is not simply believing something to be true. It's about recognizing the truth. If you don't recognize it, what's it matter? That's why we practice. And there's nothing wrong with wanting to recognize the way things are. It's better just to be honest about the pursuit, rather than pretend not to care.

Here is my best guess at what CAN happen in zen:
Assume that the teacher IS enlightened.
Then, if a person becomes a serious student of zen at an enlightened teacher's zen center and does all the things they are told: become mindful, follows all the forms, does zazen, attends numerous sesshins in which they practice forms, zazen and mindfulness nearly 24 x 7, then:

the student will start to have insights into their true nature that are similar to what happens in vipassana or any other serious buddhist practice. the teacher, who has been there before and who is involved with the student by observation and in interviews and discussions, starts to then guide the student, mostly in private, towards the same kinds of insights that the teacher has had.

It isn't always very verbal, it isn't mapped out, it is a relationship/practice that develops. I also suspect that a lot of it is secret.

Make sense? This is an ideal, but I think it might happen to those students who really jump in and get the right teacher. but, if one just dips in and out of a center and/or just does it on their own, there is no real instruction and there will be little significant effect on one's ability to become liberated and awakened.

Yeah, I don't want to come off as ragging on zen too much. I do have a good group I practice with, and the teachers there continually amaze me. But there's something about it that leaves me feeling lost in my practice, that "secret" aspect that Mike mentioned. Does it need to be secret? I can see the theoretical benefits, but not as much as I can see the actual benefits of the openness I see here.

Anyway, yes to the pursuit of truth in all its forms, and a big no thanks to dogma in all its forms.

I agree with your take, Mike, but would add that the secret dimension can take on the flavor of the mushroom culture. (See Adyashanti's anecdotes about those dudes who were standing around saying, "Yeah, I used to believe that awakening was possible, thirty years ago.") Somewhere along the way, they came to devalue developmental enlightenment to such a degree that the practice became pointless because they had stopped trying, just as a person could be so focused on development that he ends up trying too hard and gradually forgets that it is possible to rest in the perfection of this moment.
Kenneth has said something to the effect that some people take descriptions of enlightenment--Dogen Zenji's reflections after a lifetime of practice, say--and confuse those with prescriptions for how to get enlightened. Not the same thing. Still, I'm thinking about going back to our local Zen center: tons of practice opportunities there. I respect how much they sit and how dedicated they are.

"Yeah, I don't want to come off as ragging on zen too much. I do have a good group I practice with, and the teachers there continually amaze me. But there's something about it that leaves me feeling lost in my practice, that "secret" aspect that Mike mentioned. Does it need to be secret? I can see the theoretical benefits, but not as much as I can see the actual benefits of the openness I see here.

Anyway, yes to the pursuit of truth in all its forms, and a big no thanks to dogma in all its forms."

I think a lot of that secret/esoteric tendency in American Zen is a rather unfortunate carry-over from old school Japanese culture. As Mike "Gozen" LaTorra said on a Buddhist Geeks interview*, much in Zen is done with sort of a nod and a wink. There's a lot of symbolism and cultural expressions that don't translate well to the West.

I love Zen. My practice benefits greatly from the teachings of Zen masters of old and of contemporary times. I'm glad you're pointing out some of the drawbacks, though, as it is important to recognize the things that could cause practitioners of any tradition to get stuck (as well as what they can do to get un-stuck).

*Gozen talks about this in one of two episodes of Bgeeks (I don't remember which one). It's one of these'¦
-BG 095: The Buzz Lightyear Model of Enlightenment: To Infinity and Beyond, bit.ly/bTqtrN
-BG 096: The Particularities of Awakening, bit.ly/cWKMfN

"I agree with your take, Mike, but would add that the secret dimension can take on the flavor of the mushroom culture. (See Adyashanti's anecdotes about those dudes who were standing around saying, "Yeah, I used to believe that awakening was possible, thirty years ago.") Somewhere along the way, they came to devalue developmental enlightenment to such a degree that the practice became pointless because they had stopped trying, just as a person could be so focused on development that he ends up trying too hard and gradually forgets that it is possible to rest in the perfection of this moment.
Kenneth has said something to the effect that some people take descriptions of enlightenment--Dogen Zenji's reflections after a lifetime of practice, say--and confuse those with prescriptions for how to get enlightened. Not the same thing. Still, I'm thinking about going back to our local Zen center: tons of practice opportunities there. I respect how much they sit and how dedicated they are."

I just don't see how a student who goes through five and ten-day sesshins and has a teacher who is involved and interested in him or her could avoid awakening. I mean, the whole thing is just designed for awakening to happen.
Sadly, I think sometimes at centers the teachers may not actually be enlightened and don't even believe in it and/or they don't actually take an active interest in their students.
So, I think my "ideal" happens sometimes and doesn't happen sometimes, but it isn't the fault of "zen" when it doesn't, it is the fault of the particular ways it can be practiced and "taught."

ok. back to practice notes. three day weekend. 54th birthday on sunday. hope to keep momentum going all weekend and push for strong practice and strong continuity.
Friday (yesterday) was very nice. Kept my momentum up on cushion and off pretty well. My body is pusling. Lots of time to sit. Last night night on van tried something I hadn't done in a long time: focused on inside of nostrils and senations of breath there. Had two good sits at night as house was empy til 9:30. Deep, however, there was a very strong element of "looking for" around the periphery of my attention limited things somewhat -- noted same again and again. nice.
First sit today:
50 min. felt like 15. totally into basics of mahasi noting practice: rise -- what is happening there? what does it feel like? end of rise before fall -- what IS that? fall -- what is happening? note a thought, note a feeling. Stop -- note vibrations, everything. Just before rise -- what is that? Rise.
So much going on JUST THERE. just in the rise, fall, stop and the places in between.
Entire experience so cool, huge, with edges of pleasure. Hard to keep to the basics and not think think think about what was happening. the temptation to reflect is great as is the appeal of sticking to the basics and having THAT new, wonderful PROMSING experience. More time doing practice than not. More time looking at than for.

Many sits yesterday. 40 to 60 minutes.
As I'm going with the idea that one just needs to do the practice as instructed and the results will follow as promised, my entire focus now is on technique. And, I'm doing everything I can to to try to make sure that I'm actually DOING the technique while I'm sitting there.
I continued with just rising, falling, stopping, rising, falling stopping. Those were my notes for the most part. What is HAPPENING at each of those points and in between. Detail Detail Detail. Just that. Continuity. Disembed. Sensations spurt out -- note them let thenm go and be ready for the next one. same with feelings such as hope, doubt, exhiliration, anger, tension, pain. Same with all the random thoughts -- let them in, disembed and be ready for the next real detail of existence.
By the end of the day my concentration was strong. I seemed to get to E or hi E right away. When the continuity/disembedding would get just right - there coujld be great joy or bliss or pleasure, or, there could just be .... almost nothing. Not THE nothing, but the absence of almost everything except for awareness. Thinking about it now, the later sits were a process of getting to that point just described and then losing it by reflecting. and, then, getting back there again, and losing it again. I'm going to be patient and hope to get enough skill/concentration to get to the point and then stay there. I'm hoping to not get into all the frustation, doubt, pushing energy and so far i'm not. I don't see how any of that helps.
I don't know if all this means I'm almost there (path and frution) or if I'll cultivate these skills for months or years before the pop. Who could know? Either way I'm really enjoying this and can't think of a better way to spend my time.
I'll be doing the same thing all day today and tomorrow. I'll report on today later today or tomorrow morning.

"As I'm going with the idea that one just needs to do the practice as instructed and the results will follow as promised, my entire focus now is on technique. And, I'm doing everything I can to to try to make sure that I'm actually DOING the technique while I'm sitting there. "

Mike, often you do and say just what I need to hear!

Very nice. You have a real good way of describing these things.

Getting into equanimity losing it, getting it back, repeat... good stuff!

"Very nice. You have a real good way of describing these things.

Getting into equanimity losing it, getting it back, repeat... good stuff!"

Not to be too argumentative hopefully, but -
I think what I was getting into and losing was some high equanimity variation and when I lost it I was still in the equanimity mind strata, just not so so deep. I don't think I go back to the dark night at that point.

Thanks for the clarification Mike. That's how I took what you were saying and kind of what I meant (although I agree, I didn't put it well).

I too am not dropping back into dark night, but occasionally distracting thoughts (usually in the form of reflections on what is happening) come in on top of mindful awareness and then they are noted and then things go back to being nice and clear and wide.

"Thanks for the clarification Mike. That's how I took what you were saying and kind of what I meant (although I agree, I didn't put it well).

I too am not dropping back into dark night, but occasionally distracting thoughts (usually in the form of reflections on what is happening) come in on top of mindful awareness and then they are noted and then things go back to being nice and clear and wide."

maybe you are already doing what i'm hoping to get to with more practice.

just a few notes before the day is over:

.................

in vipassana, what objects are to be noted?
the ones happening right now.
which thought? this one
which feeling? this one right here
which sensation? that one ... right ... there .... and ....there ... and ....

.......................

I don't think i'm just doing vipassana all of a sudden. this primary focus on the rising and falling breath I've done this weekend has introduced so much pleasure to my sits. this is really new. i think i'm still investigating all the time, but around the periphery of my attention is joy and pleasure.

................

I discovered tonight that I "clench" my face. Actually clench it. Which means, really, I clench myself, like a fist. I bear down on my brow, my eyes, my mouth.my brain. I don't know how long I've done it, or how often, or when, exactly, I just know I do it. I suspect it may be almost constant. It's one of those details, I think, one notices when one does vipassana meditation. i think i may stop doing it soon if I havent already.

..............

disembeding.
embedding (not disembeding, identifying with objects) is an elusive, insidious, ever-moving target. just when I think I'm all disembeded, I forget to disembed from the self regard I am enjoying from the fact that I'm disembeding so well. this is just one example.

"
disembeding.
embedding (not disembeding, identifying with objects) is an elusive, insidious, ever-moving target. just when I think I'm all disembeded, I forget to disembed from the self regard I am enjoying from the fact that I'm disembeding so well. this is just one example."

Very cool insight, Mike! No stone left unturned. Keep peeling the layers all the way back!

"
As I'm going with the idea that one just needs to do the practice as instructed and the results will follow as promised, my entire focus now is on technique. And, I'm doing everything I can to to try to make sure that I'm actually DOING the technique while I'm sitting there.
I continued with just rising, falling, stopping, rising, falling stopping. Those were my notes for the most part. What is HAPPENING at each of those points and in between. Detail Detail Detail. Just that. Continuity. Disembed. Sensations spurt out -- note them let thenm go and be ready for the next one. same with feelings such as hope, doubt, exhiliration, anger, tension, pain. Same with all the random thoughts -- let them in, disembed and be ready for the next real detail of existence.
By the end of the day my concentration was strong. I seemed to get to E or hi E right away. When the continuity/disembedding would get just right - there coujld be great joy or bliss or pleasure, or, there could just be .... almost nothing. Not THE nothing, but the absence of almost everything except for awareness. Thinking about it now, the later sits were a process of getting to that point just described and then losing it by reflecting. and, then, getting back there again, and losing it again. I'm going to be patient and hope to get enough skill/concentration to get to the point and then stay there. I'm hoping to not get into all the frustation, doubt, pushing energy and so far i'm not. I don't see how any of that helps.
I don't know if all this means I'm almost there (path and frution) or if I'll cultivate these skills for months or years before the pop. Who could know? Either way I'm really enjoying this and can't think of a better way to spend my time.
I'll be doing the same thing all day today and tomorrow. I'll report on today later today or tomorrow morning.
"

Awesome.

I still feel like I'm just scratching the surface of where all this can go, which is great. I'm really enjoying this process.
Saturday and Sunday I got in a lot of sitting, Monday weird family crisis bubbled up to distract me (adult step son going to mental hospital, police coming to door due to another bizarre situation -- you don't want to know) so I only sat twice.
All sits just wonderful. Rising, falling, stopping. Rising, stopping, falling, stoppping. Over and over and over. Each breath. within each segment tried to see and mentally hit and disembed from each detail. Details -- vibrations, feelings, fleeting images, impulses constant at each segment. Stuff that has never really been paid attention to before was scrutinized for the instant they lasted. After a while my concentration got pretty strong I think and I got in to a kind of loop of quickly moving from one object to the next with complete acceptance of each. This could bring peripheral bliss, joy, pleasure as well as tiny little blips of empitness (not fruitions I'm sure). Saw some unusual lights and patterns but this was weak and not real significant. I also had some sits in which I dropped the breath and just noted vibrations. Powerful, interesting, a lot of bliss.
I'm curious if the deepness of these sits will continue into my regular work week or if I will lose some momentum.

Today was very different.
Up until the police visit I had momentum, and my mind had been getting quieter and quieter.
However, after the odd trouble came to our house, stress, anxiety and, I think, a slight trauma began to enfuse my body and mind.
So, my first sit of the day, at lunch, was mostly an exercise in noting anxiety and noting "unpleasant." I truly felt this was an opportunity for some powerfull practice experience even though I was certainly disapointed that my access to such continuity and bliss of the previous days was temporarily impossible. I felt and noted intense uncomfortable anxiety in my lower left abdomen, I saw and noted rapid thoughts and images related to the weird events in my life. It was like being in the middIle of a storm.
The rest of the day was uncomfortable and I developed a slight headache to go with the anxiety. I kept track of sensations and other objects as best as I could.
I practiced vipassana on the van ride home iand it was more of the same storm. Still, it was fascinating.
Then, at home I sat for 40 minutes and was finally able to settle on my breath and get some concentration and continuity. I noted "listening" a lot because endless thoughts swooped in that were almost dreamlike dialogues between people. Once noted, they disapeared, only to be replaced by a new one. They were like little dreams. Completely unbidden and and out of my control. I got to the point in between these dreams of noting the subtler sensations of the breath. I got more and more settled and my brain slowly quieted.
Since that sit my headache is gone and the anxiety has left as well. I

Okay. Yesterday I was off and busy with family stuff and the sits were not deep for the most part, except for the last one in the evening I drifted in and out of blissful states that were unstable and out of my control.
today everything kind of changed. at least for today. I sat in the morning in my office, at lunch, on the van ride home, and just now at home. there is great resistence to doing anything like what i've been doing for weeks. if I try to use my attention in the same way on my breath and other objects as I've been doing, it actually kind of hurts. Weird, huh? I tried noting that and that hurt. there is great resistance to any kind of pointed concentration. but, my question is -- WHAT is resisting?
just now when sitting I decided to go where there wasn't resistence. and this was a wide, open, almost passive awareness in which "I" energy seems diminished. just "doing" hardly anything. ANY self centered effort feels all wrong. I don't really get this, but it's another fascinating experience in this path.

edit: oh, and the vibrations in my hands and feet that have been constant for weeks are completey gone. So interesting.

My baseline mood is fine and good even though my practice peak I'd reached has disapeared at least for a while. Not really sure why exactly but I am really such a beginner at this level and I think I have a lot to learn. A lot of f'ed up stuff is going on in my lfe and it could just be that.
Anyway morning sit 40 minutes. noted out loud: rising, falling. rising falling. the verbal notes were done right on the breath. noted a lot of feellings, attitudes: doubt, anxiety, disapointment, hope, had a lot of thoughts about my family troubles. noted it all and then went back to breath. had a lot of energy didn't get deep.
Kept the out loud noting going after the sit (kids out of town, wife at work) noted walking, reaching, bending, grabbing, thoughts, etc. got as detailed as I could. went on a 20 mile bike ride in the country -- great way to stay mindful and also get some perspective on things. After ride kept out load noting while cleaning, cooking, etc. etc. another 40 minute sit. out load noting, notice a lot of hope, anger, desire, disapointment, tension, tension, tension everywhere. a little bit of rapture feelings in legs and arms. weak vibes.
sat again, started with out loud noting and then tried to move to silent. sleepy, lots of tension.
I think that my willingness and ability to disembed is just not good right now.
still, writing this I feel peaceful.

Sounds like some pretty serious practice to me... Keep up the good work...