jgroove's practice journal: sophomore edition

The 'what's the point' thoughts are a pain! I actually made myself a list of ten reasons why meditating was worth it, to take on retreats for my traditional freak outs, but these days the doubts are quieter.

As for all the vibrations, rocking and TV snow - I really like the noting word "allowing", just to help me step back and watch. I've also tried asking myself "How do I know this is unpleasant/painful/overwhelming?"

Sounds like you're firing on all cylinders, Joel. Great to read such detailed reports.

"What is being missed here?"

Joel, have you focused at all on the process of how these perceptions you have arise? I'm asking for a very specific reason, BTW.

Hi Chris.
I hope I understand your question. I'm pretty sure some of this stuff comes up as a result of the thoughts and expectations about practice that creep in. For example, I've heard it said that path happens when people finally start thoroughly investigating the heretofore-missed sensations that make up the centerpoint. When I recall this pointer, the thought that follows is "Well, what's being missed here, then? Since you've been struggling to attain SE for two years, you must be missing something. What is it?"
The process seems to be: JGroove thinks about the progress others have made (attaining path and beyond), can point to nothing similar in his own practice, and decides to practice harder and longer. When no breakthrough happens, disappointment and exasperation appear.
I understand that 'what's the point?' feelings and the likes of disappointment and exasperation might pop up as part of a cycle that has nothing to do with the stories I tell myself. If that's what's happening, though, I'm not sure I see that particular process all that clearly. Generally, there does seem to be OKness punctuated by sadness. Helpful?

Joel, I was asking if you follow the actual arising of these images, thoughts and feelings. How do they appear? What occurs in mind as they arise? What is mind doing, step by step, that turns a tiny inkling or a sense contact into an object? what is an object, and by inference what are these things you experience? Bottom line -- all of these things are objects. How does an object arise?

For me observing that process (really just dependent origination) was the biggest change in my practice. Until then I was frustrated and always wondering why? Why do this stuff? I'm not getting anywhere! After I saw the process (arising/passing away) that was going on and saw that it was applicable to every object my practice took off as the implications of the process of perception took precedence.

I'm making a bunch of assumptions here about your practice so I'm not sure this will be helpful to you at all. But I recall being in a state of mind similar to what you are expressing this morning and I happen to remember exactly what ended my own personal uncertainty. It was a remarkable change, frankly.

Is this helpful? If not, I'll fade into the background

"
Joel, I was asking if you follow the actual arising of these images, thoughts and feelings. How do they appear? What occurs in mind as they arise? What is mind doing, step by step, that turns a tiny inkling or a sense contact into an object? what is an object, and by inference what are these things you experience? Bottom line -- all of these things are objects. How does an object arise?

For me observing that process (really just dependent origination) was the biggest change in my practice. Until then I was frustrated and always wondering why? Why do this stuff? I'm not getting anywhere! After I saw the process (arising/passing away) that was going on and saw that it was applicable to every object my practice took off as the implications of the process of perception took precedence.

I'm making a bunch of assumptions here about your practice so I'm not sure this will be helpful to you at all. But I recall being in a state of mind similar to what you are expressing this morning and I happen to remember exactly what ended my own personal uncertainty. It was a remarkable change, frankly.

Is this helpful? If not, I'll fade into the background

"

Hi Chris.
It is certainly helpful. I'm not sure I watch objects as they arise or pay careful attention to them as they pass away. My guess would be that I only note the 'already arisen' sensations. Think I should try to shift the focus of my noting practice a bit and try to watch the arising and passing away of things?

Yes, that is exactly what I'm suggesting.

Thanks!

OK. I'll work with this and report back.
Thanks for the help!

Joel,

I'm not sure how helpful this will be to you, but I thought I'd toss this in the mix. Nadav had posted a YouTube link to Sister Khema explaining dependent origination in this thread: kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/48...ependent+Origination

I'd tried to wade through Dependent Origination before, and always gave up. This was the first presentation that actually made it through into my understanding. (I watched it in pieces)

I sat and watched this with pencil and paper in hand and worked out the links for myself as she wrote them down in the video. I also then read the discussion on she had on the DHO (link to that in the thread above).

Now that I know enough to see how parts of the chain arise, I'm planning on diving into it more deeply in the more technical literature I'd given up on before.

...

...

It's a dramatic change in the way you "see." That is hard, but well worth the effort. It's the heart of MCTB, if you ask me, at least the practice suggestions in the book. And yes, that YouTube video is very, very nice, Andy. Great idea to link it here.

Here's one more suggestion: to really "see" anything arise and pass, you can't just sit back and YOU look at IT. You almost have to BE IT. Be there before, during, and after.

Get really close to things that are arising, stick your face into it, love it.

(duplicate)

Thanks, all. I'll watch the videos closely and will try to figure this out in practice.

I know it's funny to say, but don't worry about it too much. Figure out as much as you can, get as much confidence as you can, then go back to practice. Some of my most interesting sits have come from realizing that I really didn't know what I was doing or looking for... and so paid really close attention to see what on earth I could be missing. There's no good word for it, surrender sounds too ritualistic, give up sounds to psychological, enjoy sounds too flighty, investigate seems to active, see seems too passive.... No good words for it, just something to keep feeling your way towards.

Always keep "don't know mind".

I started working with this idea last night--look carefully for the beginnings and endings of phenomena. At first, there seemed to be a choice: Do you watch and wait for the beginnings, or try to see already arisen objects pass away? However, it seemed more like the arising and the passing of the objects was so fast that it was all happening almost at once. An image that comes to mind is of lava pushing through the sea floor. I don't know if you've ever seen this in a documentary, but the lava comes into 'existence' and then cools and hardens, passing out of existence, almost simultaneously.
So, solid-seeming objects are really just agglomerations of very quick sensations that come into and out of existence nearly simultaneously. This is why "you" can't sit back and watch what's happening as an observer--the sense of you is nothing but these quick sensations arising and passing away.
This is how it seemed last night, anyway--just a vibration field. In any case, just having the intention to try to catch beginnings and endings gave the sit a different quality. I know the intention itself is an object made up of more sensations as well, but the pointer seemed helpful. I'll keep at it.

Joel, you don't have to watch the entire arising and passing of a objects from birth to death. If it's easier, and it is for me because things happen so fast, you can watch for the arising part. Start with sense contact. If you hear a sound, especially a sharp, distinct sound, what does mind do? What arises? Wait for the next sharp sound... what happens? And another.... and another.... and another. Do you see a pattern? Ignore the content of the object and focus on what mind process is occurring.

Just a suggestion because you should eventually find a comfort zone that more or less fits Joel Groover.

Thanks for the pointers, Chris!

I practiced as much as I could yesterday. I woke up early and sat for maybe an hour before everybody else woke up. Had to work for a few hours but went out on the back porch and listened to sounds while people were out. Did this for maybe an hour. I also took various opportunities to do breath-counting, etc., at different times of the day. The level of concentration seems to be high. In a minor sila victory, I drank nothing but club soda at a college buddy's New Year's Eve party. I wanted to be able to practice this morning, and I did sit for an hour two just now.

If I talk just about sounds, I'm not sure I see the mind doing much of anything at all in response to them--other than deliberately paying more attention to them when they arise, and trying to notice something about the beginnings of them. I feel like I understand the DO theory intellectually, but I must not grok it fully in actual practice. For example, sitting last night was ideal for sharp, distinct sounds--people were shooting off fireworks in my neighborhood. I tried to listen to them as closely as possible and watch what mind was doing, but I can't say that I understood, realized or saw anything in particular as far as the mind process that followed the arising of these sounds.
I'd like to report something else, but this is kind of where I'm at. I'll keep at it.

" I tried to listen to them as closely as possible and watch what mind was doing, but I can't say that I understood, realized or saw anything in particular as far as the mind process that followed the arising of these sounds.
I'd like to report something else, but this is kind of where I'm at. I'll keep at it. "

Do you notice the inclination to listen for the sounds, and the frustration of not finding anything, which arise dependent on those sounds?

Hi Joel! We were reading each others journals at about exactly the same time this morning (from your comment time stamp). Makes virtual sangha seem more tangible.

I think my advanced scouts (as per Kenneth) get into the territory that you've moved your army into these days. From that base, seems inevitable that your scouts will discover something new before long. Keep up the great work!

"Do you notice the inclination to listen for the sounds, and the frustration of not finding anything, which arise dependent on those sounds?"

Ah, good question, Yadid. I notice the inclination, and the sense of someone doing the inclining, but not the frustration or uncertainty. Hmmm....

"... people were shooting off fireworks in my neighborhood."

Let's use this because it's a great example to work with. When you were sitting and you heard these sounds, what were your eyes looking at? Were your eyes closed? If so, what did you "see" when you processed that firecracker sound? Don't think about this, just tell us what you saw in your mind's eye when you heard that fire cracker.

Joel, what's made up and where is it b being made up?

You can do this!

"Do you notice the inclination to listen for the sounds, and the frustration of not finding anything, which arise dependent on those sounds?"

Yes, this happens, too. But we're after something different right now. It's about the processing of the sound itself, and what the mind does with that sound.

What ... the ... mind ... does ... with ... that ... sound!

Another example -- I'm sitting on my porch, eyes closed. I hear the noise of a car engine in the distance. My eyes are closed, but..... I "see" a car. Is it the car that's headed toward me way down the road? What is it? How did it get there, in mind's eye? If I open my eyes and actually look at the car, will I see there same thing I saw when I heard the engine in the distance?