turtle log

Kacchapa - when you get that giddiness and such, perhaps you could try and become sensitive to that and allow it to increase and deepen. It could be a jhanic factor arising. Remember the instruction to steep like a teabag in the jhanic factors (candle as object to develop the factors then taking the factors as object).

Thurs pm, 1hr & 45 mins. Same as last night for 1st 70 or 75 mins, candle gazing
for a few mins, dozing briefly and returning, dozing again & so on.

Then energy came up and I was awake after that. Became aware of sounds and my
posture. Since self image was so prevalent, took that as a kasina object as
Kenneth has advised. Had multi-point concentration but not enough stillness
to sit back and let be. The mind would notice something was being left out
and roam over to include it, but that seemed to cause something else to be
left out like whack-a-mole. Not complaining, it was a pretty good time.

"Remember the instruction to steep like a teabag in the jhanic factors (candle as object to develop the factors then taking the factors as object). "

Hi mumuwu. Yeah, I've read that but strongly pleasurable sensations are rare and don't last long.
Unless just the mild feeling of having a good time and not wanting to stop could qualify as
jhanic factors? It's never occurred to me to try to find those as an object.

For me, a little smile can do the trick if other conditions are right, and it doesn't have to be a smile over anything in particular... just maintaining a smile for several minutes. I smiled tonight during a dharma talk and that set me off to rapture... of course, I knew what I was getting myself into -- meaning it can go out of control if not watched and pruned accordingly.

Huh - interesting ideas here. I may try smiling next time I note. Could be a way to add some EQ 'metta' to the noted objects.

Well, it sort of a snowball effect. Tuning into a pleasant sensation makes you feel more pleasant - a feedback loop

have a look at this - www.leighb.com/jhananeuro.htm

Smiling is great - it actually causes the brain to release endorphins.

"You will need a good bit of concentration to watch a pleasant physical sensation, because a mildly pleasant feeling somewhere in your body is not nearly as exciting as the breath coming in and the breath going out. You've got this mildly pleasant sensation that's just sitting there; you need to be well-concentrated to stay with it.

The first question that may arise when I say "Shift your attention to a pleasant sensation" is "What pleasant sensation?" Well, it turns out that when you get to access concentration, the odds are quite strong that some place in your physical being, there will be a pleasant sensation. Look at this statue of the Buddha: he has a smile on his face. That is not just for artistic purposes; it is there as a teaching mechanism. Smile when you meditate, because when you reach access concentration, you only have to shift your attention one inch to find the pleasant sensation.

You find the pleasant sensation, and shift your attention to the pleasant sensation. You observe the pleasantness of the pleasant sensation, and do nothing else. If you can do that, the pleasant sensation will begin to grow in intensity, it will become stronger. This will not happen in a linear way. It'll sort of grow a little bit, and then grow a little bit more and then hang out, and grow a little bit more'¦and then eventually, it will suddenly take off and take you into what is obviously an altered state of consciousness."

--http://www.leighb.com/jhana3.htm

Friday, tried to remember to smile more at work.
pm: hour & 1/2 candle kasina. Looking for pleasant
sensations. Had some brief ones but didn't find
how to hone in on them. Eventually hara energy
turned on and that's pleasurable. So, tried to
cultivate that. It did stick around and got a
little more intense (as it sometimes does anyway).
Couldn't say if my intensions had much impact on
what it did. It didn't take off and become
something more.

Saturday. Outside in the warm sun, noticed that I
felt some nearly blissful feelings and sat down
to try to observe the pleasntness and see if it
would grow in intensity. The sensations were
happening, but they seemed to move around and
act amorphous when I tried to hone in on them.

Sat pm: 1.5 hours candle casina. Sleepy and an
unusual amount of pain from the start. After
an hour I started to wake up, but couldn't
seem to focus on anything, including the pain.
Seemed like my mind wanted to do vipassana
rather than concentrate, but I was too
incoherent.

Trying to shift out of my longer sitting late at night back to
early morning, since I'm better at doing noting then. I've found
that diligent noting out loud for an hour or more at the start
of the day seems to be the best support for keeping up noting
during the day. Working on ramping that up again lately.

I've journaled dozens of times over the last year & 1/2 on my
cycles of trying keep the practice at as high a level as I can
pull off given my talent and circumstances ratio. It seems pretty
repetitive, so I'm taking a journaling break until any
unfamiliar territory comes up.

"Trying to shift out of my longer sitting late at night back to
early morning, since I'm better at doing noting then. I've found
that diligent noting out loud for an hour or more at the start
of the day seems to be the best support for keeping up noting
during the day. Working on ramping that up again lately.

"

Sounds like you're using the feedback to tweak your sittings so they are effective for you!
I like Betas analogy much, so I'll say maybe you get to maintain more flexibility that way.

Looking forward to seeing your journaling again! Good fortune to you!!

Agree on the morning session observation. I will add one other thing, for some reason practice while working or doing something else has always been an easy route to jhanic factors for me even though I've not really been able to get into jhana proper. I can sit on a cushion for an hour staring at a candle and get focused but no factors, get up, drive to work, and then center on anapanasati or something else for a while while doing my job, sorta in a half-assed way, and a half hour later whammo I'm radiating factors all over the place. Noting doesnt seem as effective while doing other things although it seems like one can start out sitting closer to the edge of practice if noting is done throughout the day...so it must be effective, just not as noticeably so.

edit - odd that it hasnt occured to me to pratice for jhana that way on a regular basis...

I am taking the liberty of making a request: could you perhaps explain what noting out loud is like? I am not sure how it works. Do you just say, "thought," "pain in right thigh," "itchy nose," "sneeze coming on," "tightness in solar plexus" etc., or is it more basic, or more elaborate? Do you focus on one kind of target--bodily sensations, thoughts, sounds? Do you try to note everything? I am having trouble figuring this out. Many thanks, Laurel

"Looking forward to seeing your journaling again! Good fortune to you!!"

Muchas gracias meekan, y usted

" I will add one other thing, for some reason practice while working or doing something else has always been an easy route to jhanic factors for me even though I've not really been able to get into jhana proper. I can sit on a cushion for an hour staring at a candle and get focused but no factors, get up, drive to work, and then center on anapanasati or something else for a while while doing my job, sorta in a half-assed way, and a half hour later whammo I'm radiating factors all over the place. Noting doesnt seem as effective while doing other things although it seems like one can start out sitting closer to the edge of practice if noting is done throughout the day...so it must be effective, just not as noticeably so.

"

WSH3, that's really interesting. Things about Vipassana can be unbelievably universal, but individual differences seem amazingly variable.

"I am taking the liberty of making a request: could you perhaps explain what noting out loud is like? I am not sure how it works. Do you just say, "thought," "pain in right thigh," "itchy nose," "sneeze coming on," "tightness in solar plexus" etc., or is it more basic, or more elaborate? Do you focus on one kind of target--bodily sensations, thoughts, sounds? Do you try to note everything? I am having trouble figuring this out. Many thanks, Laurel"

Hi Laurel, you haven't asked an expert but I'll try to help out. There's been a lot of great info on this topic shared on KFD site but it's not easy to search for it with Wet Paint.

It usually works real well to start a new thread with your question. If you click on the Discussions link in the
upper left (beween Home & Photos), and then way over on the right,
under Search threads, is a link called Post a new thread.
Then you can give it a subject, like "Question about How to
Note out loud?" for example. I bet that one would get you
a wealth of great responses that would be useful to a lot
of others as well.

continued: Just from my experience, what you describe sounds like a great
place to start. I think people find this is a kind of exercise
where you get better at it pretty quickly the more you do it.
Like hiking up hills or lifting some weights etc. I think it's
often recommended here to note the most catchy current sensation
and stay with it for a few seconds or long enough to settle on
it and see what it's doing. Some people say they drill in on
a particular sensation, like maybe an itch, and try to stay
honed in and see everything about it until it changes.

Personally I do sometimes like to try to note as much as I
can of what's happening as fast as I can with short verbal
notes. So you get an idea of what the range of approaches is
from just asking one meditator. If you start the discussion
you'll probably get good advice from some very experienced
yogis.

I sincerely thank you. I'll also repost my question to the entire group. Best, Laurel

Owen asked me to journal my daily sits, so here goes.

Sunday, 1 hr.
Noted out loud for 3 mins or so, dozed off for maybe 3 or 4 seconds,
started noting again, dozed again and so on for the whole hour.

Didn't try to rouse any heroic wakefulness, but noted out loud
steadily hoping to catch when dozing started to happen. Only
caught it 2 or 3 times.

When I 1st starting noting out loud a few months ago, found
out some new things about drowsiness. Started catching it
start sometimes, and a few times even watch it happen.

Now when drowsiness starts and I note it outload, the unpleasant
drowsy energy sometimes changes into a pleasant, gentle, somewhat
wakeful energy felt more in the trunk.

That only happened a couple times this sit. Mostly just dozed
off and tried again.

Hi Kacchapa. Thanks for posting. Yeah, these kinds of sits can be tough. Way to gut it out! I'm looking forward to reading more...
Joel

Joel, ha!, I had your "gutting it out" in mind when I stuck with itt for the hour.

Monday pm 1 hr
Up late Sunday night with an IT deployment, so expected to sleep during this sit. But was wakeful the whole time and would have kept going except I thought "got to get some sleep sometime".

Had just listed to Kenneth's Mahamudra and joy of failure and tried out noting without a goal. Can't remember this sitting very well; had that twilighty, middle of the night feel to it that makes a lot of sense at the time, but can't relate to it the next morning.

Tues am 1 hr

Noting just physical sensations at this point.
For 10 mins+ noted pulses, itches, tension etc. Had concern over and adjusted my posture. Tried to notice whenever my face would tighten and let it relax, or my posture slump and straighten again. Added noticing when my left leg would start tensing and letting it relax.

Had mild, brief energy feeling up and into the forehead. Noticed the tingling, granular aspect of sensations, and pulse waves. Noticed the posture had relaxed. Attention started broadening and felt constricting to focus on just one thing. Tried to open to the body overall. Stopped verbally noting but shorly started spacing out. Kind of tricky trying to note particular things to keep from drifting, while not focusing on them.

Starting noticing the physical aspect of emotions (that had been triggered by a thought), where they were in the body and relaxing with them, how long they lasted. Became relatively quiet and still.

Started noticing the physical reverberations of thoughts in the body without focusing. Noticed the judging thoughts that were reactions to my thoughts. Got interested in this process and ended up focusing on parts of it and would get pulled up into my head. Releasing back into the body seemed more spacious but noted the urge to make it the same as before.

It was interesting to note spaciness, like starting to space out.
Catching it shortly after it happened or as it was getting ready to.

At one point I started to have the head thought "you just have to ..."
intending to comment to myself on how to do this right. But the thought was cut off by a body-based thought "you don't have to do anything".

Eventually, sitting was still relaxing and enjoyable but some restlessness was coming in. I felt sure the hour was up. Looked at my clock, 59 minutes.

This kind of sitting make me feel like I'm not a failure, and there is hope of success! I can look forward to the joy of failure soon.

Wed am 45 mins.
25 mins just trying to note pressure, itching, pulses, tingling, tension, relaxing, and letting go of wanting to have a sit like yesterday. Started to have nausea (from tea on an empty stomach). Wanted to get up and have a bit of food to stop it right now, but decided to watch it for a bit longer. The stomach part felt like a constriction the size of a baseball, not real unpleasant. But when I tried investigating that, nausea would shoot up my trunk, in my mental image, broadening like a beam from a flashlight, to my neck. Stuck with that for 15 minutes or so and it was unpleasant, but taking it apart some seemed to make it more tolearable. But not putting up with it for an hour.

PM about 1/2 hour after exercising late. Sensations similar to morning, but with fatigue.

"Started to have nausea (from tea on an empty stomach). Wanted to get up and have a bit of food to stop it right now, but decided to watch it for a bit longer. The stomach part felt like a constriction the size of a baseball, not real unpleasant. But when I tried investigating that, nausea would shoot up my trunk, in my mental image, broadening like a beam from a flashlight, to my neck. Stuck with that for 15 minutes or so and it was unpleasant, but taking it apart some seemed to make it more tolearable. But not putting up with it for an hour."

Are you sure it was the tea?

"But when I tried investigating that, nausea would shoot up my trunk, in my mental image, broadening like a beam from a flashlight, to my neck" - I've had almost exactly the same thing... Might not be the tea

Glad to see you here!

Thanks for asking, m. & w.! You're description does look very similar, WSH3.
But I think there was more tea than DK about it (to paraphrase ebeneezer scrooge).

Woke up this a.m. feeling anxious and desperate. Hit the cushions with that
energy coursing like mad thru my body. Felt great compared to all the drowsy
sitting lately. Lots of tight clinching everywhere and an aversion to relaxing.
Started noting fast and focused trying to get somewhere, else.
Even with the anxiety I felt like with all this wakeful energy I'm going
to have a strong sitting. But everytime I thought I was getting into a groove
a busy family member came into the room. My mind was very chatty.

Earlier in the sitting intense energy spots were turning on in my forehead
and hara. Hara energy, in it's tight little area, has been getting more
intensely pleasurable over the past months. Noticed an unusual sensitivity
in the normally flat heart area and watched for that out of the corner
of my eye. It started waking up more than I can remember. It didn't feel
sad, but I was surprised to hear my out loud noting voice sounding sad.

A room entry threw me off that and back into anxious focusing and trying
to get somewhere. When the hour was up, I really wanted another hour.

PM: nearly an hour. Knew I'd be drowsy so noted as fast as possible out loud
to try and head that off. Worked pretty well but I tend to have trouble
figuring out how to note oscillating, amorphous sensations, or waves of
sensation that cross most of my body. Mostly tensions, pressure, itches,
tightness. The sensations were somewhat granular and tingly/vibraty.
My mind state was pretty much just trying hard to keep continuously noting.
Eventually started falling asleep, probably my most aversive sitting state,
and called it quits.

Sat pm 1hr 15mins
noted predominant sensations .5 to 1 hrz, sometimes 2hrz.
Sensations were prickly, tingly, vibraty. When images
or thoughts presented, tried to find where they were
and felt like in the body. This seemed to release
thoughts into an opening feeling in the chest.

With self image, kept trying to see the facial and head
sensations in the same space as the image.

The term grounding in the body seemed like it could
apply (but no idea if it's the same thing).
Bringing self image and thoughts back to physical
experience started to give experience an impersonal
and non-judgemental flavor, to an extent.

At least a couple of times when a self image started to
come up, it just looked like a discrete, identifiable,
objective proto-image coming up and going back down.

At one point my neck, at the voice box, loosened up
and opened up some. If that's happened before it's
been awhile. Getting drowsy, tried to see/feel where
it was in the body. At some point, noticed that
instead of turning from thoughts and images to
where they might be in the body, I had started
trying to supress them. Tried to discern the
difference.