turtle log

Thanks for the pointers, Antero!

I'm confused!
Kaccapa, is mpavoreal you or another person with the same avatar and practice...?

"I'm confused!
Kaccapa, is mpavoreal you or another person with the same avatar and practice...?
"

Talk about duality

Woops, I was mpavoreal quite some time back. One of my PCs must have cached the login. Both tortoises in either case.

I took a chair out next to some trees at the back of my yard to listen to Friday evening sounds and watch slow backlit clouds and pale blue sky just before sunset. Noting Friday evening sounds, heavy traffic, the last bird songs and power tools, kids playing late, dogs barking. The sky blues slowly become subtler. Settling into the late evening sounds, bikers at full throttle and the crickets start. I started noticing the granularity of the cricket and bike sounds, and catch a train whistle during the 1st second that it starts. I see the first stars and mosquitos and bats show up. Misquitos buz granularly by my ears and bite and making bright itches. Haven't had so much fun all week.

Noting how my field of vision is just the sky but there is a constant show of images of what I imagine I'm hearing, picturing myself standing next to the chair looking up, even seeing my facial expression. The sounds start to coalesce so that my attention is not shifting around from their apparent directions. They start to blend some into more of a shared space of attention. If my movie of the sources of the sounds is imaginary then where are the sounds? I try to investigate direction and location, how are they happening. Noticing that the pictures of my body are images, I find myself investigating the sense of location of body sensations. For a minute it seems like sounds and body sensations don't seem to have separate locations. Once I start thinking about logging this, my steadiness starts wavering and I start thinking about going in even though I'm doing fine. It's hard to resist the habit of going in.

That's very deep, perceptive stuff, Mark.

Thanks for the feedback, Chris. I get this uneasy feeling that I'm making it sound like my sittings are more un-ordinary than they are. Also I tend to journal mostly the good parts.

Went back to the trees today feeling a sense of momentum. I've been thinking about catching up my journal so I can keep track of my practice over time. It was really interesting to me to reflect on how it's changed from a long pattern to recently when I've been going in a new direction working with Chris. After 45 minutes this was demolishing my sitting so I gave up and decided to go head and jetison this stuff. One of the reasons I don't like journaling. I'm going to insert this retrospective-to-current stuff in my log in small chunks for awhile so I don't overload the updates page. This is mostly for me and to add to the huge amount of data here in case it's ever researched. Like probably everyone else I'm always interested in the amazing feedback here if anyone is taking time from their summmer to skim the practice logs.

Great stuff!

Thanks Joel.

Trying to summarize my experience with nanas, how they look to me now after 2 1/2 years practicing here. I thought the nana map was advanced and hard to remember. I was just trying to learn from Kenneth and improve my noting. Several months ago I got interested in the nanas when I could start recognizing some of them in practice and in retrospect. I got into mind & body and 2nd nana when they were pointed out at an IMS retreat 35 years ago, but I didn't know they were nanas. (Like at the IMS, MTCB describes 2nd nana as seeing how an image-intention precedes each small action.) 3rd nana was obvious, can't get confortable, aversion, posture adjustments don't work etc.

I had some memorable A&Ps at retreats (and a long time before that a knock-down A&P on MDA) and I think started having low-key A&Ps regularly toward the end of hour long a.m. sittings several years ago. Energy waves, posture straightening effortlessly, energy coming up and being intense at the forehead. The past couple of years having an intense little round energy at about belt level that seems to synch with the forehead intensity. (Happening right now). The mini hara-esque energy is almost overly intensely pleasurable, verging on being like sexual sensation but persists. When I would sit for 2 hours at a local zen center that has an intense practice, I would sometimes feel like I was having an energy-body nervous system dialysis, where tensions were replaced really fast by a wave of healing unblocked energy. I think that's all or mostly A&P, but didn't know it was 4th nana until I started trying to figure out the maps. My 1st practice log here I called "A&P or bust" because I didn't think I'd ever had it.

Looking back on my logs to see when I started to recognize the nanas in my practice, I find so many examples of Kenneth giving me really helpful advice with noting and practice that it gets me back in touch with the enormous dept of gratitude I have for him. I've made more progress in understanding how to practice since I met Kenneth than in the decades before. I hope to repay his kindness by making progress with developmental enlightenment, which I think has always been his goal in working with me.

Looks like I could recognize the 1st 4 nanas in my practice by early 2010 and by Oct 2010 recognized that I'd been having brief equanimity states for probably years but had no idea how meditation experiences fit into a scheme of things with each other, or how to work with them. So I thought I must be a chronic dark night yogi. But I still can't nail individual DK nanas when they happen, except 5th. From Dec 2010 (post 101 of my previous practice journal) "Recently it's been seeming like I go from 3rd to 4th nana within 10 minutes. At an all day sitting today, 3rd to 4th seemed real obvious, then for the first time it seemed likely I was catching a fairly quick shift to 5th. On the lookout for possible dukkha nanas I was surprised to find that dukkha-esque stuff was relatively subtle and easily covered over by habitual attempts to regain a better state or by distracted thought". I don't think they always fly by like that, but it might be as close as I've come to a direct insight of the 6 thru 10 nanas.

When I talked with Chris about my practice last week he said it was pretty clear I had done a cycle of a&p, dissolution, dks and equinimity, and that I might want to re-read the nana descriptions on the home page and keep an eye out for any cycling. I hadn't thought about nanas for nearly a year. My practice hit a wall last September and felt like it was falling apart. It was a downhill slide until December; nanas seemed out of reach, and I forgot about them. When my practice started to recover in December I lost interest in the nana map. So I've been trying to remember what experience I had with them before. It goes back further than I remembered.

I'm most unclear about which states are equinimity. I've had some short ones that might be EQ. The only one I had that was like the classic EQ described here started after a stand-out a&p and dissolution that started on new years weekend (post 211) and lasted for a few days. The other experiences were more like altered states but seem too still and laid back to be a&p. So the nana I have some interest for is to become more familiar with EQ.

I had a noteworthy state yesterday I was going to log, but it seems unreal to cherry pick 3 hours from a pretty frustrating week, where I was disappointed with myself and my practice and struggling all week to get my momentum back, and kept shooting myself in the foot with compulsive behaviors.

Or you could note it down here along with your caveat in the hopes that others may find it of interest to others struggling alon the same path. I'm also curious about what specific sorts of compulsive behaviors you shoot yourself in the foot with.

"I'm most unclear about which states are equinimity."

Equanimity is often spacious and crisp. It's the kind of state we have when we laugh at our compulsive behaviors and see them as the small-mind states that they are. Everything is simple and clear -- even a little miraculously so. You can see the freedom around things.

Remember it comes after "reobservation", i.e. the clastrophobic poop-storm.

If you find yourself kinda weepy, saying "Why do I make things so complicated for myself?" And are starting to look around a little, realizing things don't need to be so burdensome... that's the doorway. When we have our own neuroses slapped across our face and we just accept ourselves flaws and all... that can be the beginning of equanimity.

If you extend that acceptance out to all of experience, to the flaws and all of the material world, the flaws and all of other people, flaws and all to your past and your future, flaws and all to your own practice... that's EQ growing stronger.

Thanks betawave, that's a timely description. After I wrote about wanting to get more clear about equinimity I thought, what about reobservation, I'm clueless about that.

After this week judging and struggling with my practice, putting in a fair amount of sitting but feeling stalled. This morning sit, the agitation and concentration discontinuity was there but I noticed some space around it. It felt king of gentle. On a tip from someone I asked, what does this (current sensation/state) need to say? Can't remember the details, but I ended up softening and thinking it's OK but not necessary to struggle. Noticed that without the struggle what was happening could just move along. Cheered me up.

With all of these nanas, the descriptions can seem kind of overstated, so for the past couple of years I've been slowly recognizing that they've been happening, but not what I expected because I thought they'd be a big wow.

@Andy, thanks. Chris suggested I journal more about it, too, maybe this weekend.

"@andymr: "I'm also curious about what specific sorts of compulsive behaviors you shoot yourself in the foot with.""

Wasting time on the internet. I'm addicted to world news, swear it off for awhile then binge again. It always feels like more painful examples of samsara. I often work longish hours and on weekends and complain to myself that, if I had as much practice time as I would happily use, I'd be enlightened by now. For years I've been doing without either sleep, exercise or sitting to have time for the other 2. Usually sitting comes 1st, with sleep and or exercise taking the hit. So to spend 45 mins to an hour just surfing around means less time for the physical essentials, and more pressure on work and family time. Kind of tragic in a way.

My therapist recently suggested that resisting addiction doesn't actually work. But asking the urge, what is it you need? or what needs to be felt?, and hanging with what comes up can open things up. Like Joel said recently. I haven't gone far with that yet.

Also I can get ocd about self stories, so trying to type this quickly before I start perseverating too much One reason why I take longish breaks from journaling sometimes.

I had a moving practice experience on Wednesday and planned to journal it. Thursday doing my walking and driving meditation after work, how I would journal it went into an endless loop and the brief thought that I would try to catch and note it before it started up again only lasted a couple of seconds. So I stopped at a park for another try at walking and listening, same thing. So when I did get to my journal, I said "no logging the experience then, one sentence and that's it!" The whole thing sounds compulsive. Back to work. (Working so much has a lot of fearful compulsive.) I will share the nice practice experience after sitting so I can remember it better.

Last sitting the story telling started again but I was in non-technique mode and just let it. There were more gaps than I thought. Story pieces would happen then stop, then again. The pauses were passively curious, and became longer.

Envy alert: I hope this won't stir envy in anyone who has had mediocre therapy experiences. My therapist is a seasoned yogi who's been doing frequent zen, dzogchen, vipassana and diamond approach retreats for 40 years. I started more than a year ago to work on any personal stuck places causing my practice to get stuck. We both have a background with Toni Packer (retired) whose approach was "to look together" in meditative inquiry at what the person brought up. Therapy has become where we sit meditatively with the presenting issue, and while I'm feeling/looking into it, she brings up pointers or asks occasional questions. I think this is new for her too, and we've moved to kind of a mix of therapy and awareness approaches. Combining these is something else. I do appreciate how rare this probably is to have lucked into this kind of therapy!

Lots of work breaks today.

When I got home from work once last week there was a gravitational pull into my chest and gut. Coming into the house, I felt palpable pain of my family there and went out on the deck to let the pull happen. One of my daughters wanted to pickup this torturous argument from the day before and got pissed when it looked like I was going to meditate my way out of it. I told her I was actually more present than usual if we could keep it simple. She stomped away but came back. I said I'm going thru something now that's new to me and I'm clumsy at it, but if we can bring up something that's really to the point and then be patient with it for as long as needed, that I think it could be worth trying. I think she could tell I wasn't just head tripping so she started. Amazingly I could stay grounded in my gut when I saw my head start to spin up with some idea. Then I would respond with a few words from ... I can't quite remember where it was from, but it was coming from something not my habitual way of thinking, talking and holding myself.

Something that happened in therapy when I was in this kind of space was that a self image would come up apparently representing how I would look from this emotion or that idea or thing to say or how I would look in this kind of interaction with my therapist, and it was obviously a frozen little slice imposed on something wider and quicker and less visible than could be captured in an image of my face. And somehow I could let it go for a noticable second of spaciousness before the next one would come up.

That was happening while talking with my daughter. I remembered what rob_mtl said about the cartoon image and face tension when it seemed like my face did relax when I was loosening from images that stuck on while talking. My attention was pulling in but I noticed that keeping some listening to sounds seemed to help. I started to notice almost an electric zing when I would look directly toward my daughter with really unfamiliar presence and openness. She's very intuitive and heart-centered usually and we just dropped the argument issues and it was plain to see it had been about my resistance to the discomfort of being present without wanting to fix it away. Her posture and face had been very constricted and unhappy. I let down my defenses and she unwound and relaxed and smiled. So simple.

Some of this lasted into the next day and there were some very untypically tension-free intereactions with my other daughter too.

Fruit!

"I let down my defenses and she unwound and relaxed and smiled. So simple."

Nice!

For what it's worth, the internet addiction and work demands that intrude on exercise and practice... is very familiar to me. I've been looking at that in myself recently and I'm liking the idea of using the "air element" as a reminder of what is going on. If Air is afraid of non-existance, it rushes around trying to encounter as many objects as possible so that it knows itself. Air naturally circulates and penetrates the smallest spaces when it flow naturally, but the pathology is crazy busyness, busyness for it's own sake. It's also a symptom of the "human realm" where, when we experience some enjoyment, we work harder to get things we think we need... but then have no time to enjoy it.

What seems to work for me is making sure I (moderately) exercise. Puts me back in touch with my body, re-channels frantic exercise, and afterwords gives me more stable attention. The trick is not to bring the "Air" dynamic into the workout! Hope this helps (maybe not as a specific solution, but as a general idea to kick around.)

Hi, M! Really nice reading your log again and seeing you progressing!
Go go go!

Hey Meekan! Great to hear from you and see you're back, just found your new practice log. I've wondered how you've been doing pretty regularly, even within the last few days. Looking forward to reading your journal again, and glad to know you've continuing practicing too. And thanks for the encouragement!!

Betawave, thank you for your thoughtful feedback. I've still been processing the helpful things you said about equanimity, takes me awhile to register good advice. So far I think I get what you're saying about moderate and frantic exercise. Rings a bell.

"With all of these nanas, the descriptions can seem kind of overstated, so for the past couple of years I've been slowly recognizing that they've been happening, but not what I expected because I thought they'd be a big wow.
"

Welcome! By the way, this statement of yours is really true. The nanas can be very subtle in our experience, so it's sometimes bad to know the maps, it can make you underestimate your progress and lose hope. But they can be fairly mundane, including reobservation and equanimity. Sometimes it only is clear well afterwards, oh that was reobservation! Oh, that was equanimity!

Chris suggested it's **possible** I had 1st path at some point and didn't recognize it. Some aspects of my practice resemble post-stream entry Chris said, but not beyond a doubt. Reading about 1st path experiences I never thought that a reboot would be very subtle. Looking back in my journals nothing jumps out at me in retrospect. Also I've never noticed anything similar to how people describe fruitions. It did loosen up my closely held identity as someone who's failed for a long time to get 1st. I doubt it, but now I have to not know for sure. The main thing making me think it's unlikely is the no fruitions. I'm not sure it makes a difference, whichever path is the one I haven't got yet is the one I'm hoping for.