turtle log

I think we need to start a no-big-wow club.

There seems to be a few of us who barely notice nanas (let alone sub-nanas), barely notice any post-fruition bliss wave, barely notice post-path cycling.

"I think we need to start a no-big-wow club.

There seems to be a few of us who barely notice nanas (let alone sub-nanas), barely notice any post-fruition bliss wave, barely notice post-path cycling.
"

Raises hand. I am in the club. Especially after 2nd path.

Me too. I've never really had this "bliss wave" they talk about.

Hanging on to this thread: listening practice, and cartoon image, DO.

Rob: "Generally, I feel like when we are "embedded", there is a ceaseless string of visual / auditory frames that unfold in our minds' eye and ear that stands in for actual experience, and this is the process of delusion / dependent origination at work."

Chris: "Gentlemen, that's the whole enchilada as far as advancing through the Theravada paths is concerned. This is the figure/ground reversal necessary to eventual awakening. It's the core insight allowing one to see through/penetrate all objects. The process, once you have access to this insight, is to keep applying it as often and as thoroughly as possible."

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/49...set=20&maxResults=20

I think I was in an equanimity for a couple of weeks on and off the cushion. Then a
plunge for a few days and back to eq. for a few days. This week has been another
plunge. Started with difficulty concentrating and getting settled, hard to find
mindufulness while doing things. Then a medication reaction that felt like being on
bad street drugs for a couple days followed by a couple of days of med readjustments
and a spike in migraines. I have so much fear and aversion to feeling like my
brain/mind is f__ed up. Difficult for me to let go of gripping the aversion as if my
life depended on it enough to lay back some and try to objectify it.

This Saturday a.m. decided to sit for 1.5 hours and pull myself together, mind all over the place.
Then a kind of sobering steady clarity as several habitual behavior patterns seemed laid out in
front of me along with their consequences plain to see. I thought that the plain-as-
dayness would not be changed by whether I responded with metta or remorse, fear and
cringing. I went with the latter. It was so adversive that I couldn't sit still, but I
could see that my thoughts were spinning all around it, body squinched up, and huge
impulse to get up and dash around doing productive stuff. Chris's advice that the hard
places are the most valuable rings in my ears these days. I figured I'm supposedly
doing vipassana. So tried really hard to stay put and notice the impulse to run with
the aversion. I've run hard from this stuff all my life but I think this was the 1st time I
ever looked at it directly enough to see a little bit what it looks like.

" I've run hard from this stuff all my life but I think this was the 1st time I
ever looked at it directly enough to see a little bit what it looks like.
"

It sounds like very nice progression to me.
Can be tough, but I'm rooting for ye!

Thanks Meekan! and sorry not to get back to you, sometimes I have to get past resistance to journaling. I've been putting in pretty much sitting time for me, hour & 1/2 to 2 hours perday partly trying to push past this sense of flatness in my chest where ardor sometimes gets a good flame going for awhile and keeps on the life-as-retreat mode.

When it's not there I have some more dissipation in my lifestyle and feel lack of confidence and resolve and concentration, equinimity and investigation all take a hit. Since I don't seem to be able to control this I've been trying to note judgements, thoughts and feelings about my ability to note or practice. But the noting doesn't seem to have much oomph, continuity, without the arousing of ardor, confidence and persistance.

Trying to note pieces of this mess that I'm not succeeding in controling, has been making me feel kind of threatened and crazy at times, like I'm not sure that what holds together my sense of sanity will hold up. It's hard for me to see how this all works. Does spending extra time on the computer instead of being mindful at every opportunity really take such a big hit on my practice, as it definitely seems to, or is it my fundamentalist christian upbringing freaking out over being bad. Am I usefully shaking up my world/practice view by half-a*s noting failure to note very well, or am I just failing to note very well because I'm not arousing maximal ardor and consistency.

It all feels pretty threatening and I have nightmares about doing terrible things and being doomed to hell rebirths. Don't know if this is a good thing or, with pretty much schizophrenia in my family I have to watch my step. It always makes me feel grounded in reality and confident when I have my sila, concentration and equanimity act together. Like what early Buddhism says. But I can't always keep that rolling with the ups and downs of outer and inner circumstances. So I've been trying to follow Kenneth's advice and turn poison into noting food.

I had some nice sits this week, a really cool spontaneous metta that gave me a new understanding of what metta is. And yesterday a fun intense pleasurable sitting that I thought was an a&p but maybe it was mostly a nice jhana. I never used to think these where jhanas becaue of my idea of them as being ultra concentrated, but Chris has been pointing out that's not usually how jhanas work. My yard stick though is how well is my mindfulness keeping up in daily life and it s**ks lately.

Starting a several day solo retreat tomorrow. I expect I'll get some very nice concentration, equinimity and investigation going that charges up my practice which will then dissipate at some point before long. My practice has been up and down like that forever.

Noticed that discernment was a lot stronger than stability. And any thought or judgement about it would start to kick off a rocking reaction but letting it go would stop. If I applied a description like "stillness" or quietness that would instantly shake things up again, so had to let the thought go instantly. Things got kind of moment to moment still, pleasant and chilled out. I thought, I bet this is a mild dissolution after a&p. But the thought had to roll off to keep from rocking. Noting seemed too loud and clunky for a bit, but then some relatively subtle drifting would come in, so it was a balancing act each moment.

I had a running commentary about this, as if I was journaling it, but it was kind of rolling off in pieces too. So it seemed kind of "over there" and whispy like a little wind in my throat. At one point the sense of watching the commentary kind of popped up in my head and felt more indentified with it, but could still see that that was happening and it was interesting. A couple of times the beginning of a restless thought but it just rolled off and took any oomph out of it. I knew I had to get up and going and that of course this state wouldn't last as I got active. But it just seemed obvious and not an issue

Sat a.m. 75 mins sitting, with 10 or 15 mins interruption by pleasant interactions with passing family members. Like yesterday, right off noting very hyper energy, felt explosive in my chest and head. Noting sensuosly textured multi-tonal sounds of a nearby chain saw. Noting the granularity of sounds and tingling body sensations. A thought "I might go crazy" followed by an image supposedly representing going crazy and a moment of panic, but when the thought and image subsided so did the panic. Noticed how a thought would cause a big reaction.

Like yesterday started having intense squinching up around my nose and between my eyes, and eyes being forcefully crossed and staring down hard toward my nose, then up a little above between my eyes, and brief eye lid fluttering. More light in the visual field. The feeling of being wired went to the periphery and noticing a wide range of sounds.

Sun a.m. started with 20 mins thinking of good things that I do, and then some self-metta. Felt tensions and anxiety relax and more pleasant physical and mental sensations. Later started 1st day of 5 days solo retreating. My klesha suppresion hasn't been that strong lately, so during 1st sit had images of family members, missing them already!, nostalgic memory feelings, and impressions from recent music videos etc. Just let them kind of drag their sticky painful poignancy across my chest as they let go. Then one of my biggest sitting aversions, drowsiness. I just did the same thing, not resisting or avoiding it, kept trying to be present for it. By the 2nd hour this seemed to get me into an equinimity. Did a 3rd hour of that. Later some of my physical problems kicked in and I tried to note some of my squirming with them.

Today. Felt very into my chair today, sat for several hours listening to highway traffic and mostly noting out loud. A couple of times there was a brief weak version of the concentration energy between my eyes that I think of as some a&p, but energy sensations were staying down and not much of them.

Most of the time I got into this thing where everything that came up wanted to fall off and my practice didn't want to take time to know about any of it. It got hard for me to come up with the words to note, though I kept trying. I wondered if the attentive but not knowing state was dissolution rather than equanimity. Eventually sensations were hard to look at squarely although I could see they were there. I figured this might be getting into some DK as in MCTB, so just tried to lay back and see how it happened. There were some obvious disjointed jangly vibrations and for a couple of hours I wasn't sure if I was really noting what was happening. Eventually I went for a walk still not sure but then noticed attention was catching sounds instantly and acutely from all sides often in a startling way. I peripherally wondered if the not-knowing and constantly coming back to the immediate sensation but not sticking on it was dissolution, equnimity or a jhana. I did notice that it was hard to investigate without unsticking from the concentration, unusually absorbing for me so maybe it was a jhana. Later I had to allow myself to become more distractable so I could focus more on investigating. Trying to investigate the images of my body and environment that aren't actually in the field of vision.

My wife and I switched places today, she did a day of retreat and I did what she would have done. After having what for me was an intense absorption while walking yesterday, and pretty absorbing sittings, I was surprised to plop back so fast to full blown ordinary distraction today. With retreat states being such great examples of impermanence, I resolve to do vipassana inquiry for the rest of the retreat. After my 1st sitting back this evening it occurred to me that distraction is an impermanent state too.

Several hours of sitting today. In the 1st hour of a 3 hour stretch I tried to keep awareness of sounds while also noting physical, feeling and mental sensations. And got into a laid back non-manipulative mode. I remember trying to note mind states as a feeling or a space. Around hour 2 bright energy turned on that made it possible to see my body and mental events, at the same time as sounds. Including any impulses to make an effort.

At one point I remember thinking that the effort to pay attention to some sensation was just another sensation at the same level or same sequence as the target sensation. It's hard for me to recapture this now, but I could see how all the things I would usually get up to to do something about the other things going on were images in my mind that were being seen but I usually don't pay attention to the fact that they are being seen.

The next time I sat I tried to settle back into this, knowing there was nothing I could do to make it happen, but I couldn't quite get there. After a couple of hours in unfocused state, I thought that might be why for the rest of the day I found it hard to focus and felt distracted as a result.

Afterwards also the cartoon image of my face was pronounced and became a strong magnet for distraction. And I had a hunch that while I thought that I was observing from a body-wide space, I probably was slipping into observing more from my visual image space more than I realized.

One other thing I want to remember. I wondered why when I moved around between hour 2 and 3 sittings, this perspective went away just while moving and then back when I started sitting. It looked like that when I went to move I had an image of what I intended to move toward and that in the intent to get it I kind of stuck to or identified with the mental lurching, and wasn't laying back to see it happening.

"At one point I remember thinking that the effort to pay attention to some sensation was just another sensation at the same level or same sequence as the target sensation."

Excellent, Mark. That's a very important observation.

A couple of take aways from last week's retreat: memory of seeing at least 3 times, including this morning sit, how most things I think are irrelevant, gratuitious nonsense and/or delusional. It seems like it's a way to separate from fear. (While I felt clearest about this, I would have regarded this the same.) And more motivation to note the 4 Fs.

Insights upon insights!
Go go go!

Thanks Meekan!!

Monday a.m. 25 mins trying to listen to urban sounds and note predominant sensations at the same time. Felt restless and distracted. Some interruptions by passing family. p.m. 45 mins, mostly drowsy and nodding off.

Tuesday a.m. 1hr20mins. 5-10 mins of distraction, 10 mins of metta. 35 mins of attempting to concentrating on and note sounds, while also trying to not mental images of my environment and body. Noted sporadic sounds, tending to trail the sound noticably. Often I was actually noting the memory of the sound if it had quick duration. Occassionally noting stiff and painful shoulders and neck. 20 mins of 4Fs noting: sounds, stiffness and squirming; noting unpleasant physical sensations and a few pleasant energetic sensations. A smile happened at one point. Noted worrisome and planning thoughts when they lasted a few seconds so I could notice and note them. Noted wanting and intention to look for something (better) to note. Tried noting the general sense of mental space. Tried to recall the sense that the general trying and experiencing was being seen. 5 mins dedicating merrit to a sick relative.

1hr 15min. Started with listening to sounds under a tree in the backyard. I switched to noting when I got into a loop of composing a letter I might write, trying to catch the start up of the next round of letter writing but usually just catching it several seconds in.

when I sit indoors in a room with the door closed and windows open, images from outdoor sounds don't always have much image content, except a vague visual sense of being out there, spacialy. But Meditating in the backyard, image production goes into sensurround mode, like it's filling in all the blanks with 3-D virtual reality.

Also interesting to see how my mind deals with my hearing loss which, if my head is still, makes it sound like a car is coming from one side but then also moving away from the same side. Also a sound seems to be coming from the front when it turns out, if my head moves a little, that it's more likely behind me. So now my brain creates a picture of the school bus coming from the right, but then has to change the movie suddenly when the bus also moves away to the right, or was it the UPS truck? Or it's on the the street in front of my house, but then, oops, change the movie so it's on the street behind my backyard.

1hr 10mins tring to listen to sounds while also noting any predominant sensations. (I've been thinking of this as listening anapanasati, since sounds are much easier for me to stay with than breath sensations. Don't know if that's a valid comparison.) After 10 mins when I started falling asleep, I got some caffeine real quick, and went back to sitting jolted awake. I've been doing this for years thinking I don't want to waste my awareness time sleeping. So what Betawave said on Meekan's thread, kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/49...set=20&maxResults=20 , #31 is very interesting.

"it seems like path moments just need one moment of 100% mindfulness and usually happen when you are very relaxed and in the transition from daydream/trance back to mindfulness. Switching in and out of trance is no big deal and isn't a good way to judge a sit." I'll see how it goes to sit more without caffeine. For the past year I don't have much sleepiness during the early a.m. sitting, I just feel dull and not noticing as much of what's going on without some green tea.

A year ago I started investigating drowsiness, based on a tip from another journal (can't remember which one) that drowsiness felt in the body wasn't necessarily sleepy compared to fighting it from the head. When I started watching drowsiness as sensation waves in my arms and trunk I did start staying more awake and found that drowsiness was actually a soft sensual energy that was fairly pleasant. During the past few months I can usually feel drowsy energy coming on and watch it wakefully in my body to the point where I usually don't think of it as a sleepy state. But any sitting after the first a.m. sit out of bed, I almost always get sleepy drowsy unless I try to prevent it with cold air, ice water, caffeine etc.

Investigating drowsiness is really interesting!
Just got this association to high caffeine intake

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/46...t%3A+An+Introduction

Oh yeah, I remember that. I tried it out briefly but thought it was one of those practices that came out of his personality, his natural practice at that time.

1hr started noting sounds and physical sensations, got in touch with how my entire posture is unbalanced with various stress points from scoliosis. Didn't have a motivation to struggle with getting a better posture this time, felt relaxed enough to watch and feel it, let the body come up with something. Noted unpleasant body sensations but then noticed a spacious feeling in my chest but extending outside the body, that it was pleasant. Noted spaciousness, pleasant. Started feeling non-interventive and eased off of noting. Recalling the sense of some sittings from a recent retreat, started watching mental images, the sense of targeting certain sensations and having an intent around them. Noticed physical and, I think, mental contaction around the image of my mood/facial expression, how the image combined with facial tension and retinal light to make it seem more substantial.

I've noticed that for maybe 3 years, but this time noticed how the energy of intent also combines with that, and then how 2 or 3 sentences of an evaluation, judgement and intention create a sense of energy and momentum around the combination to make it seem even more engaging and harder step back from and see it's edges, where it starts and stops. It seemed to rev up with each new block of sentences, and if I was watching carefully but not hands on I could see or at least feel how it stopped briefly but noticably. It was like slipping on ice, but it was possible to not get entirely stuck or sucked into the start of the next thought-intent-energy-contraction-image-retinal light sequence. I noticed this also involved the sense of windiness in my throat and something about constriction in my chest. Since I've been up, moving around and writing this, I've been trying to see if I can keep observing/objectifying this as a process with a beginning and edges and space around it. Much more challenging when the intentions result in my moving to do something and getting what I want from doing it. I'll see how it goes today. Just had some caffeine and seems like it makes it harder to see because the intent energies are more hyper and makes me feel like awareness contracts more around what's going on. But Kenneth told me once caffeine sensations have no special significance, they can be objectified like any other.