Laurel's practice

45 minutes this morning, beginning with 3x10 breath counting. Settled down at some point in the third set. Began noting sounds, then expanded to other body sensations, vedana, thoughts, emotions. Ringing in ears is still pretty intense, and the heartbeat sounds like some sort of construction going on in the distance (in fact, and this is kind of funny, there've been times when I've wondered whether that is what it was). For awhile things were pretty quiet, then there was a shift and I felt vibrations over the entire body. A few aches and pains, a few itches, a twinge of tension or stiffness. Then the visual field got noticeably brighter and I had some alternations between dreaminess and alertness. Some flashing light, pinwheels, that sort of thing. This persisted, along with the vibrations, for quite some time. I'm not sure whether or not the dreaminess is torpor. I had a bit of restlessness and doubt, particularly towards the end of the practice. On the whole, this was the easiest session for me to complete of all my sits recently.

" I'm not sure whether or not the dreaminess is torpor. "

Yes, I have never checked this with a teacher, but I have a sense that some kinds of dreaminess is not torpor- in fact, at this stage, I slide into a certain quality of dreaminess just before 'fruitions'. So if your instinct is telling you "this is dreaminess, but I don't feel like it's torpor", trust that and relax with it.

I think that there's just always some ordinary, fluid, brownian-motion of imagery at the mind-sense-door. It's just a sense-door- its job is to pass on the data in your brain. We have a tendency to think that it is the source of our painful, compulsive, over-thinking, and so we tie ourselves in knots trying to calm or silence it. There's no point.

If you are feeling "here is a bunch of disconnected imagery and thoughts, but it does not have the quality of a hindrance", trust that. You're on the right track!

"Rob: I slide into a certain quality of dreaminess just before 'fruitions'.

"

Yep, always like this for me too.
I think I remember Kenneth mentioned that is is common.
For me a certain kind of dreaminess (but not day-dreaming!) is a sign of Equanimity.

And Hi Laurel!

Hi, PEJN, and thanks to both of you for clarifying this business of dreaminess (if that isn't a contradiction in terms!). I am going to stop fighting it. I wasn't really fighting it much this morning, but the thought that I should be was nudging at me.

Late this afternoon: half an hour at the local meditation center. There was a rather persistent radio playing just outside the windows, it was hot, and the fans were blowing loudly. Since sound is my anchor with noting practice, this presented an interesting opportunity. When I meditate at home, my challenge often is that there is not a lot of sound, so my ears ringing and my heartbeat seem very loud. This time I wouldn't have been able to hear those things if I'd tried.

I noted annoyance, curiosity about who was being so inconsiderate, judgmental thinking, aversion, wanting it to go away, and the fact that there were no strong emotions connected with any of that. Everything felt kind of okay. The anxious knot in the solar plexus was not there. It still isn't. I did not experience any vibrations in the body for quite some time, and thought maybe the noise was making it difficult to discern, but towards the end I felt it happen. It was somewhat prickly and electric feeling, but not unpleasant. Afterward felt deeply relaxed, still do.

" the fact that there were no strong emotions connected with any of that. Everything felt kind of okay. The anxious knot in the solar plexus was not there. It still isn't. I did not experience any vibrations in the body for quite some time, and thought maybe the noise was making it difficult to discern, but towards the end I felt it happen. It was somewhat prickly and electric feeling, but not unpleasant. Afterward felt deeply relaxed, still do. "

From my own experience, this is exactly what you will be experiencing more of. It seems to unfold slowly, and bad days still occur. Sometimes on good days I'm still an @$, but I see it and drop it quickly. More dark nights to come... BUT once this ball gets rolling it seems to take on a life on it's own and things become much better with very little "effort or pushing". Keep going, good times ahead!!

Thanks for the freedback! This morning, 45 minutes, was even more of that. I found it easy to sit, and felt a calm expansiveness for the entire time. I let thoughts come and go; I don't know whether it was Kenneth or Daniel who said objects present themselves, as if wanting to be acknowledged, and then pass on. It was like a silent parade that didn't ruffle me at any point. The body felt light vibrations, from time to time building into a bit of lovely rapture. There was an underwater feel to the entire experience. There was no pain to speak of; what pain occurred was short-lived and insubstantial.

Rev, thanks for mentioning that bad days still occur. I have dropped the dualistic thinking that made me dread bad days and feel as if I would never get past them.

Win!

Good to hear. Also, wonderful to see how successfully you employed the mahamudra noting technique while working through the dukkha nanas.

Excited to see how you progress. Make sure you enjoy your ability to have a panoramic/inclusive awareness while going about your daily life off the cushion. It's a good way to maintain momentum in equanimity.

Mudita!

Thanks! Right now I am trying to figure out what this territory looks like. I feel quite sure that I know what the dukkha nanas look like, but this is something else again. For example, after sitting this morning I felt as if all my windows had been washed--everything looked so clear and pretty. I was happy. But then my computer acted up, and I needed to get some paperwork done (which is a recipe for frustration), and while I didn't have a meltdown over it, I no longer felt panoramic/inclusive, freshly washed, or happy. But throughout the day I've had that feeling wash over me more than once, and again I had people tell me how pleasant I am to be with (what was I like before? I don't want to know!).

Late afternoon: another 30 minute sit at the local Buddhist center. This began with bliss, mounting into joy, fading into peace, calm, and happiness, but then veered off into a kind of inconclusive mishmash without much focus. Dreaminess didn't start up until later on. Some narrative, some thinking, noting everything I could but not able to stay on top of all of it, some pain, and then toward the end some serious itches. But I felt refreshed overall.

I'm not sure any more what practice to use; that's part of the problem. It's hard to commit to something and stay with it. I'm also still feeling the restlessness hindrance, even when sitting is very pleasant.

Speaking of focus: it wasn't all that good during the day either. I feel a bit of wandering mind at work, which continues to be frustrating, although I'm no longer getting into the self-loathing spiral.

35 minutes this morning. Lots of distraction at first, but settled down and experienced vibrations in head, neck, arms, and hands. There was some pain over my right eye and a few itches, all of which eventually subsided, along with a knot in the solar plexus. There was also lots of ear ringing mainly in my left ear throughout, and the sense of distant hammering echoing mainly in my right ear (go figure). Dreaminess and thoughts alternated with absorption. Sometimes the area vibrating felt warmer, but eventually it began to cool. Overall, the entire session was very pleasant, and the feeling lingered for awhile after it ended.

As for what I was doing: I began with 3x10 counting breath, then noting, then eventually dropped the noting and just sat and watched what was happening. If I got distracted I'd note for awhile, then let go of it again. There was a bit of restlessness, wondering about the time towards the end.

I have one question, for whoever chooses to respond: I notice that for some people, a meditation session seems to go up the progress of insight map, passing through preliminary stages until settling at that person's edge. This doesn't seem to be the case for me, or at least not that I can discern. Is this how things are supposed to go at a certain stage of things?

I'll say this: progression through stages of insight, in my experience, is something you only really begin to understand after the fact. Long after the fact. That's one of the real limits of the maps- you only correctly understand a "nyana" after having been through it a hundred times, and even then, you might not be in a position to recognize it "live". So, trying too hard for an on-the-spot diagnosis is prone to leading to frustration.

Your latest post (208), to me, indicates the passage of several stages in the Progress, but I wouldn't want to guess *exactly* which ones and where you topped out, based on that.

Picking up where I left off: my guess is that individual people are good at recognizing some stages, and less good at others. For me: mysterious itches? Bam! 3rd nyana- three characteristics! Sudden stab of anxiety? Bam! 6th nyana- fear! Flickery, noisy, jackhammery gut-sickness? Bam! Numer 10- re-observation! But beyond those three, my own guesses get vague.

To go a bit "macro" for a second: after I passed stream-entry, it became so clear to me how unimportant it is to become "good" at this; how so much of my striving was based on trying to "earn" stream entry through mastery, or "paying my dues", or some kind of soul cleansing. It turns out that having the intention, being modestly diligent, and not being panicked by the side-effects are really all that is required of us.

It may seem like you are "working" toward it, but when it comes, it's clear that it, along with all of life, is a free gift, no strings attached.

The maps and stages are after-the-fact descriptions, averaged over many people's experience. If you were following directions to get somewhere, and they told you to turn left onto Maple Street, you would not need to practice turning left 50 times in your driveway before taking the turn. And then, even if you fishtailed, spun out, and knocked over the mailbox on the corner while taking the turn, dammit, * you would be on Maple Street*. That is all that matters

"after I passed stream-entry, it became so clear to me how unimportant it is to become "good" at this; how so much of my striving was based on trying to "earn" stream entry through mastery, or "paying my dues", or some kind of soul cleansing. "

Wow. That describes me to a "t"--I'm trying to be a good student. Thanks for the clarification--I'll stop worrying that I'm somehow doing this wrong, or not "getting" it.

"I have one question, for whoever chooses to respond: I notice that for some people, a meditation session seems to go up the progress of insight map, passing through preliminary stages until settling at that person's edge. This doesn't seem to be the case for me, or at least not that I can discern. Is this how things are supposed to go at a certain stage of things? "

Hi Laurel,

I'm curious about what in your experience and descriptions makes you think you aren't passing through stages to get to your cutting edge? For example, in your post #208, there appears to be a progression.

It might be useful to think about what you're expecting to happen. Is what's happening not matching your expectations in some way?

"I'm curious about what in your experience and descriptions makes you think you aren't passing through stages to get to your cutting edge? For example, in your post #208, there appears to be a progression.

It might be useful to think about what you're expecting to happen. Is what's happening not matching your expectations in some way?

"

I guess I kind of recognize the itches as 3 Characteristics and the solar plexus knot as Fear, but there's no discernible A&P as far as I can tell. As for what I'm expecting: I guess I wouldn't be apt to expect a clear progress if I hadn't read others' accounts of experiencing something like that in their practice threads. I also recognize that not everyone's experience is the same, but I was curious enough about these reports to want to ask about it.

I know I am afraid of doing or getting it wrong in some way, also. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that my impression is that technique is more important in the pre A&P stages than later--or is this not true? I know there certainly are ways of spending one's time on the cushion in those early stages that are not useful--spinning in content, daydreaming, whatever. I guess I should just break down at this point and admit I'm confused. How does one judge between skillful and unskillful means, yet avoid the pitfalls of trying to do things "correctly"? Part of what attracted me to pragmatic dharma in the first place was the understanding that a person can do this, apply herself mindfully and "get it done" (a phrase I hear now and then on the forum). I'll end here.

"It turns out that having the intention, being modestly diligent, and not being panicked by the side-effects are really all that is required of us. " -Rob

I like this a lot. I might say, having the attention to simply notice and allow what is happening in any moment IS the practice of freedom, and practicing freedom conditions freedom as a habit for this body mind. Good habits snowball and lead to more lasting changes.

Laurel, your practice is strong and moving in a good direction. At this point, mapping your movement through the stages of insight (in any given sitting) doesn't seem so important. Whatever is happening SHOULD be happing, whether or not it seems like you're moving through all of the stages of insight up to your edge in each sitting. I would simply committ to the attitude of bringing non-judgemental awareness to whatever is happening and prioritize that way of relating to your experience above all else. Also, in order to simplify things, you might try continuous noting in sits and while going about your business (as much as possible). And Mahamudra noting is definitely an option.

Your practice is great. Keep going.

Metta and mudita,
Beth

Thanks. Right now I'm noting fear, agitation, and that strange vibratory sensation in the head and arms. Just had a falling out with someone over politics, can't quite brush that off immediately, but need to redirect as soon as possible rather than obsess over it. I am noting that for whatever reason, I am not having a great day, but that's okay. There's a certain kind of toxic personality that has the ability to throw me for a loop--but then again, I'm not enlightened yet.

I'm going to see Colleen this afternoon, will probably do some ping-pong Mahamudra noting. Thanks again, Beth, Rob, and Andy.

It's common for the early nanas to move by more quickly and subtly. At this point for you, the A&P might just be a quick flash of joy, a couple seconds of happy tingling, etc.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by your last question about technique. It's true that getting to A&P requires more effort. By the time you're in equanimity, it's more about maintaining the momentum you've already gained than generating more, if that makes sense. That doesn't mean you can stop practicing or that technique doesn't matter - it's just a different approach/mindset. It is always a good idea to focus on technique rather than states or stages. When you sit your goal should be to apply your chosen technique as continuously as possible for the duration of the sit. This way you're not setting yourself up for disappoint by looking for whatever state you see as progress at that time. If you're paying attention, you're doing it right and progress will happen - doesn't matter if you can fit your experience into a map in real time, etc.

There's nothing wrong with wanting stream entry. I spent a lot of time imagining what it'll be like, congratulating myself on my progress (or beating myself up on the perceived lack thereof), really wanting it, really wanting to not want it so much and so on right up to stream entry. Noticing all of this stuff is a good sign and good practice. I love what Rob wrote; you eventually realize that jumping up and down and really really wanting it won't make the fruit ripen any faster than its natural pace. Striving and doubt will continue to arise. That's fine. Just focus on your technique and note them.

Thanks for this comment, Nadav. I am not sure that I am following through with the right technique--I can't maintain noting through an entire practice, but I think what I'm doing is probably what I need to be doing at the moment. For example, this morning I began my 45-minute sit with my usual focus on the breath, counting to 10 three times. By the time I got to the third set I was deeply relaxed. I then moved to noting sounds; not too many of those in the silence of the early morning, but there was a lot of ear ringing and the heartbeat. The hammering of the heart was much less noticeable today than it has been. I'd hear it only occasionally.

There were a few random itches, a few twinges of pain, and then I felt dreaminess, after which the vibrations set in. This morning it was almost exclusively in the arms. For the bulk of the sit I alternated between dreaminess and vibrations, back and forth, back and forth. It was kind of hard to do much noting, other than when I'd catch myself dreaming to note something about the imagery that was coming up, and then noting "vibrations" when those started. There were occasional thoughts, occasional stabs of emotions (guilt, remorse), but mostly I felt deeply relaxed. Towards the end I began to feel physically light, especially in the arms, as if they were levitating. It was a subtle kind of sensation.

I do want stream entry, more and more as I realize that many things that seem mysterious to me now will become clearer once that happens. I also want diminished suffering. It seems that this week mirrored last in one thing: I felt a sense of equanimity on Wednesday and Thursday, only to have it fall apart on Friday. I don't know what today will bring, but yesterday was a hard day. Yet I still was able to evoke the subtle vibrations off the cushion that I had experienced in meditation.

Laurel
From where I am it looks like you are doing everything exactly as you need to. Keep doing what you have been and you will get stream entry. Try to relax and let it happen, it will.

Such a valuable thread. Another one that should be top priority for the KFD backup tapes!

Gotta agree with everyone. I really find this thread helpful as I am in the same place. Keep doing what you're doing, I know I'll definitely be following

I'm so glad people are finding my reports helpful. I will continue with last night and this morning. Managed to do 35 minutes last evening, felt relaxed, but can't remember much about it! In my case, a new sit seems to cancel out whatever memories I had of the previous one. I do remember it felt easy to stay put for the entire time, there was reduced dreaminess, and some of the vibrations that are typical of my meditations at the moment. I went to bed and instead of reading myself to sleep, which I tend to do obsessively, I kept noting. Had a more restful night as a result, I think.

This morning I tried sitting for 45 minutes; there was a lot of dreaminess alternating with vibrations. At one point well into the session got a monster itch. After awhile I got just plain sick of the spaciness, to be honest. I checked the timer and found 8 more minutes, and thought, no way, I can't do this any more, then got the idea of ending the session with some walking meditation. So I did that.

Off the cushion, I was unfocused for most of the day yesterday. Did family stuff, felt worn out from it. I have been doing more and more mindfulness practice during the day lately; yesterday I was frequently noting my unfocused state. I had tasks that needed to get done that I was deliberately avoiding. Along with chronic anxiety, this pattern of procrastination and avoidance has been the bane of my life. It almost always is followed by self-loathing, self-reproach, and can then spiral into despair if I'm not careful. In general I managed to stand back from that. I think I know what happened: my conflict of the other day was still reverberating through my system, and until that settled I was not going to be able to focus on any of the tasks that needed to be done. I think I'm finally settled now.

As I write this, I occasionally stop and can feel my head and arms gently vibrating. It's kind of nice.

It seems like it is pretty normal to go through reobservation-like experiences after having a taste of equanimity (by the way, I'm not saying that is exactly what is happening, so don't consider this a diagnosis, just an observation that probably helps in many circumstances).

Once there is a taste of peace, the difficulties of life stand out in higher relief. The challenge is to get the real taste of both extremes of experience.

"Reobservation-y" stuff is in your face, but if you look right at it, it becomes very vibrationy and doesn't seem as oppressive. Just a lot of energy happening and having it's way with you. No need to fight it, even though you can't blow it off -- often there is an element of truth to it and some actions you need to do.

"Equanimity" stuff is such a relief that it is easy to space out and drift -- or to strive for it when it isn't there. But when it is here, looking directly at it shows that it isn't the ultimate answer. It's a state where not a lot is going on and/or we aren't bothered much by the self-arising of different energies. It's good to look closely and learn that lesson, too. Even though equanimity is a preview of enlightenment, it isn't it. Looking closely at the moment by moment features of equanimity is important.

Seems like you are blessed and cursed to have both of these experiences recently. Keep looking closely! Get the full experience (the no-pressure, let it arise, notice what is happening, being with it, etc. kind of "full" experience) and gain insights. Insights can happen whatever your experience is.

Hope this helps, but definitely feel free to ignore!

Kenneth's statement about equanimity in joel's practice journal is much better than mine! Check it out!