Laurel's practice

This sounds good, Laurel.

Could you post a phenomenological description of one of your sits at this point, including the chronology? Are you recognizing a recurring pattern?

You say it feels like you've been thrown back - does that describe your general experience when walking around/sitting? Is that just at the beginning of sits? Do you then find yourself at equanimity?

"This sounds good, Laurel.

Could you post a phenomenological description of one of your sits at this point, including the chronology? Are you recognizing a recurring pattern?

You say it feels like you've been thrown back - does that describe your general experience when walking around/sitting? Is that just at the beginning of sits? Do you then find yourself at equanimity?"

I've been waiting to reply to these questions until I had a good chance to observe a sitting, but it hasn't been possible. I tried sitting this morning and stopped early. I began with counting breaths 3x10, then doing a kind of panoramic observation. I took longer than usual to settle, well into the third sequence of breath-counting. Then I was hit by lots of sleepiness alternating with vibrations. After awhile the sleepiness got to be too much and I just stopped.

For at least a week, maybe longer though, the alternation between dreaminess and vibrations has been the new standard. What feels like a throwback is that I'll find myself after about half an hour having itches, reminding me of the 3-Cs. Then after awhile I'll want to stop. I don't feel a clear pattern of going through the insight path on each sit, ending at equanimity.

Off the cushion I'm wondering if I've gotten thrown back into Re-Observation. I feel vaguely nauseated, paranoid, and morbid. I'm tired and thinking life is pointless. I'm wishing I'd never started this path and wishing I could just be happy as a separately defined self, permanently (in other words, I'm in childish rebellion against all of the Three Characteristics). I'm wondering about death and feeling afraid.

I've been having some medical issues lately that might be contributing to some of this; I'm not sure. I'm not acting out, and the feelings I'm describing aren't incapacitating.

One other thing I've noticed: at any given moment when I'm just sitting somewhere, like in the doctor's office or a coffeeshop, I can center myself a bit, relax, and then begin to feel myself as vibrations, even my teeth. It's actually a pleasant feeling. In the doctor's office the other day I had a 15 minute wait and spent it like that; when he came in finally I had a hard time pulling out of it. He was kind of high-energy with a rapid talking pattern, which was disruptive to be around. I answered his questions but didn't feel like I had all of my normal social "face" on. I don't know what to make of this.

Sounds like good practice, really. Vibrations plus sleepiness is actually pretty classic. It's not uncommon as your practice has plenty of momentum to settle in quickly and get very clear awareness of flickering sensations. Of course, even though you can access this stage quickly, it doesn't mean you won't experience other stages. Sits can have a fast settling period all the way to equanimity plus a movement into the other stages, including the near neighbor reobservation. Other times you can go through the full arc very methodically, from mind and body on up and back down. Longer sits can go through a few "cycles" of these arcs. Other times it can just be confusing. Regardless, no big deal. What ever comes up, comes up. No need to second guess.

For what it's worth, vibrations and sleepiness is a classic combination and can essentially be considered equanimity. You should know that you can still make a lot of progress while you are sleepy. In fact, that kind of twilight consciousness can be a zone of a lot of insights.

If you are really sleep deprived, then sleep of course.

But don't be afraid of sitting while you are sleepy, in fact have fun with it. If you can spare a half hour, then you can play the "three head nod" game. Sit and do your practice, paying attention to the sensations of falling asleep. Oddly enough, being aware of the sensations of sleepiness can make you alert. Many times, though, you will do the head-nod jerking awake thing. No big deal. Let yourself go through three head nods before calling off your sit.

I always have a good night's sleep after doing sleepy meditations, so practicing while sleepy is a double bonus.

Thanks, Betawave! I decided to go for it, practiced 30 minutes. Hard to get the mind to quit spinning thoughts, eventually started noting. There were lots of sounds involved, a few aches and pains, itchy feelings, tingling, very mellow, visual thoughts, speculating thoughts, eventually felt vibrations beginning in the legs this time, then travelling up, then starting again. Vibrations came and went, noted for awhile longer, then experienced what I think is what Kenneth called "slippery mind," lots of thoughts, so I did the "I'm listening" trick, pretended I was a cat watching a mousehole. The thoughts came and went. Also experienced boredom. Settled down into some lackluster vibrations. After all my complaining about sleepiness, didn't even get sleepy (the fact that I had an early evening nap may have had something to do with that!).

I've been spinning around in a boatload of content lately, some of it compelling, some of it nasty. My phobia regarding driving reared up again; I found that noting practice while behind the wheel allowed me to maintain contact with reality, helped achieve calm focus. At work, I'm finding myself transitioning from the relative quiet of summer to a situation of back to back classes, meetings, and discussions with people, feeling at the center of activity, chairing a major committee, having people seek my input, organizing things, taking on a position of responsibility and respect. It's highly gratifying, and also distracting. For a brief period I can almost convince myself that these things can be satisfying in a lasting way, forgetting that it's all temporary, and that it leads a lot of the time to stress, frustration, and aversive responses.

I've been too busy to meditate; take that for what it is: an expression of where my head has been. But I have managed to sit nonetheless. Last night I was tangled in a painful, convoluted narrative of a situation at work, which kept recycling through my head over and over. I could not sleep. Eventually I sat for about half an hour, and settled somewhat, but not entirely. I am feeling more grounded now, more willing to accept the lesson all of this is teaching me. I am more functional than I have been in ages, maybe ever. I am noting all of these observations and doing everything I can to practice off the cushion when I am not able to sit or settle myself.

More sits where I alternate dreaminess with vibrations. This morning, however, I was at a practice session with the local teacher, doing a guided meditation, and I didn't experience either of these things, just calm focus. However, I have been tired and in a lot of pain today, plus concerned over the situation at work. Watched a video; both husband and son were out of the house. Wish I could have sat instead. But when I'm upset over something I seek distraction still; this is my long-standing pattern. I've reached a resolution about the problem, but I have been reaching new resolutions about it all week and am still not sure what it will take to get some sort of closure. There's a lot at stake for a number of people, including the potential for some pretty awful consequences for me and another individual.

"But when I'm upset over something I seek distraction still; this is my long-standing pattern."

Laurel, this is a serious issue. What do you plan to do about it?

I really empathize with how work can intrude into non-work life and meditation. Frankly, I just went through a fairly serious spell of this (almost literally a "spell" -- really indulging in thoughts and thinking as if they were completely real) and I'm not sure I'm totally out of the woods...

In retrospect, I could have lessened the impact on body and mind by being better to myself, especially getting more exercise. I was using distractions, too, but this let too much physical nervous energy build up. Mental processes can distract and assuage physical tensions, true, but nothing like physical activity to really loosen up physical tensions.

I'm coming out of it now, but there always seems to be post-experience review/re-living before a traumatic experience is left behind. Sure enough, this weekend I've been awakened at night by walls of anger/fear/despair. It's gotten so bad that I've _had_ to be with them. So I resolved to experience every sensation and dimension of it and let it do whatever it wanted to me. I knew if I tried to manipulate and push it away it would just stick around longer and I knew that without really feeling the suffering it would never be made fully conscious...

And sure enough, lots of suffering, even new flavors and nuances that I hadn't appreciated, and lots releases and insights came -- especially about where my responsibility begins and ends.

So funny and sad: Once again in my life, I look at my actions in retrospect and I see I could have simply honored what I can do and leave it at that.

The rest of the world's actions have to play themselves out as it needs to and that's something I can't predict. Predicting and pretension don't help, even though it can feel like a kind of protection and defense.

I was doing lots of metta and using jhanas to wash away mental and physical tensions but, and this sounds so simple and almost stupid, I wish I worked out or went for half hour walks before sitting these last few weeks. I probably would have had better health and practice.

The insight about understanding that there is a limit to what I can do is a big one. Shows that my sense of self was being defined by an external success, which is what others can percieve, rather than a loyalty to knowing I did what I could regardless of how things turn out. When I look closely at how I think about the future, I see that I believe I can know the different possibilities that might happen --- which gives me the comfort of certainity, but deep down I can't lie to myself and believe I really know, which causes more uncertainty! It's quite a do-loop. Of course, we still need to think about the future, I guess the point is not getting too troubled and locked into predictions about the future and thoughts about consequences which are really both just guesses.

(sorry for the long post, hope there are pieces that are helpful!)

"Laurel, this is a serious issue. What do you plan to do about it?"

Well, I know what I have done about it: tell myself that it's understandable, that over time the tendency will fade, that once I get stream entry at some point in the future it will be all over with, blah, blah, blah. But what I did this morning is sit for 45 minutes, and it was a really good sit--my narrative loop was plaguing me at the beginning, but I got settled after 4 counts to 10 with the breath, and then noted for awhile, rather than let my mind open to whatever was happening, because I needed the structure to keep from falling back into ruminating.

There was a period of itches, then I started wondering whether there'd be some kind of A&P, noted "speculating," did this a number of times. My dominant observation was "fear." I have said in the past that the feeling of constriction in the solar plexus just doesn't break up and reveal itself as arising and passing away, but oddly enough this time it did, or rather my attention moved to other sensations, and I realized I'd left the fear and it didn't seem as strong. I came and went with it several times, noting other stuff as well, some sadness, tears wanting to start up but not really getting anywhere. Eventually the dreamlike imagery began, but I didn't get lost in it for any length of time. Then I experienced the vibrations I've been having lately, but they were much finer this time. The alternation between dreaminess-vibrations was choppier this time, briefer episodes of each. I had dropped the noting by then, but saw the observer watching this alternation happen.

Then eventually I got interested in how much time I had left. It was about 5 minutes. I had sat very, very still for the entire 45 minutes. It felt good afterward.

Betawave: I probably had such a good experience because I had done about 40 minutes of yoga beforehand.

I agree totally about the value of doing more exercise, especially for us "head types" who are so unbalanced.

My fear today was compounded by having to play some viola selections in church this morning. I noted in the car on the way down, and then I did something I'd never imagined I could do: I noted while I was playing. I noted sounds, noted sensations in my hands and fingers, my bottom sitting on the chair, people walking past me, sounds of my accompanist, thinking about how all this was happening and didn't have to add up to "I am playing, OMG what will happen if I have an anxiety attack and mess up, what will I do, etc." I just kept noting. It didn't interfere with the playing, it improved it. I hope this becomes a habit.

So, EndInSight, to conclude, more noting during the day, and Betawave, facing up to the feelings of anxiety and depression, however bad they seem. This morning I was on my way into a full spiral at certain points, which I noted. It's as if all this is the end of the world or something. I realize that distraction makes me feel apparently better while it's going on, but afterward I'm left in the same place, only I've just blown however many minutes or hours or whatever. Plus finding more opportunities to work out, and to do formal meditation as well.

I had a lesson with Beth on Monday afternoon, but practicing has been a bit off for a couple of days. I got back into it this morning, with a 45 minute sit. It was the same as Sunday's in a lot of ways, but with fewer itches, not so much fear, quite a lot of the rapid alternation between dreaminess and extremely fine vibrations. The pattern seems to be escalating, but the dreaminess isn't all that deep; I notice it and within a second I'm out of it. There was no inclination to check the time.

I settled the situation at work that had been eating me alive for awhile. It really brings home the importance of the first training--if things aren't right in the morality department, they're not going to be right anywhere else. May all beings live with ease and with kindness.

"Well, I know what I have done about it: tell myself that it's understandable, that over time the tendency will fade, that once I get stream entry at some point in the future it will be all over with, blah, blah, blah. But what I did this morning is sit for 45 minutes[...]"

Sounds great!

I often used to think that when I ran into problems like these, they would require some "deep" kind of solution, as if I'd have to plumb the depths of my mind to find the causes and resolve them...but, if the problem is doing X, the solution can simply be to stop doing X. Avoiding practice? You found an easy way to resolve that.

I've had a nightmare week, and I'm still recovering from the fallout, which was more complex than I'd anticipated. I basically had to clean up a mess that dated back to almost 3 years ago, a time of intense pain and trauma. It involved tough discussions with 3 separate people. The worst was on Wednesday. I would like to say I'm over it. It will take time.

The point of these remarks is to set the context for a description of my practice. I have lost sleep, and been unable to focus to meditate. I have tried. Prior to this week, my mind would settle after counting 3x10 breaths. A couple of times this week I went to 4x10 and it still didn't settle. Last evening I sat for about 20 minutes, and while I was still somewhat agitated, the fact that I meditated helped me sleep. I got up this morning and sat for 45 minutes. In the middle of the second sequence of 10 breaths I started thinking, if I don't settle I'll tack on an extra set of 10, then thought, no, just resolve that by the end of 3 sets you will be settled; otherwise it's like giving monkey mind permission to act up for an extra 10 breaths. This approach worked.

I spent about 20 minutes doing a bit of noting followed by bare attention, and felt reasonably tranquil. Noted sounds, sensations, thoughts. I noticed a peculiar absence of much emotion. After awhile I began having more vivid imagery associated with dreaming, which glided into vibrations. The vibrations, instead of alternating with the dream-states, seemed to continue through them this time. There was pressure building up in the back of the neck and head a couple of times, but nothing along the lines of what I experienced last summer. There were a few minutes of harsher vibrations that felt like static electricity. But most of the time the vibrations were extremely fine. They seemed to encompass all of the body, but not all at once. Ended feeling relaxed.

Laurel, what is your view on your last sit? What do you think is going on in juxtaposition with the other "stuff" in your life last week?

Also, have you tried just not worrying about the busy-ness of your mind when you sit? Do you think you would be able to sit and watch your thoughts as if you were watching a television show or a movie?

"
Laurel, what is your view on your last sit? What do you think is going on in juxtaposition with the other "stuff" in your life last week?

Also, have you tried just not worrying about the busy-ness of your mind when you sit? Do you think you would be able to sit and watch your thoughts as if you were watching a television show or a movie?

"

In all my sits, it's as if I enter the surface of the ocean, and am at first confronted with whatever turbulence is there. Once I get far enough underneath, I find a deeper layer of peace. Yesterday I was able, perhaps because of my resolve, to get down under the waves. What happened once I got there seems not to have had much at all to do with the content of my week.

This morning was a different matter. I wasn't noticeably upset this morning, but I never got that far beneath the turbulence The mind was not necessarily worrying, just active. I noticed it first as I was doing the yoga I always do prior to my early morning sit.

I guess I find the busy-ness of my mind unpleasant. While I was doing my yoga, for example, I felt a sense of just how alienating and tiresome my narrative threads can get. It used to be that I enjoyed spacing out and thinking, thinking, thinking. This time it really felt like the proverbial hot coal in one's hand; I wanted to let go of it. I admit I was actively working to do that. I tried sitting on my bolster in the middle of the workout and counting breaths 10x2; I felt more settled, but then as I resumed moving through the poses I felt the activity in the mind starting up again.

Part of what I felt this morning was frustration. I had believed that over the past few months I had reached a point where I no longer had to contend with the kind of monkey-mind that is the plague of beginners. Now I feel almost as if I'm a beginner all over again.

(cont) I realize we're supposed to approach our practice with beginner's mind, but I don't want to be thrown back into the turmoil of an untrained mind. So I actually told myself that I should not allow my mind to run on and on like that; otherwise I'm reinforcing it. I used Kenneth's technique of saying, "I'm listening" when it kept happening. I'm wondering whether my mental activity during this morning's sit might be "slippery mind," which I understand is a feature of equanimity. In any case, I did get to some vibrations, but not the dream imagery I've had so often lately. Then I heard my family overhead, and I admit I ended the sit early.

On the whole, I think my practice has helped me deal with the problems at work quite well; I've been able to see things more clearly than in the past. But I am now longing, longing, longing for stream entry. I want to let go of the hot coal. My life, unfortunately, has gotten more complex and busy. But that's the way it is.

Laurel, I used to have the same issues with mind that you now have. So, this will probably sound odd but I think you could be setting yourself up for failure if you fully believe you will be able to control your mind on a regular basis. I, too, thought there was some magical fix that would show up one day through practicing hard and wanting it badly. Turns out there is a magical cure and it does come practice -- but it does not eliminate monkey mind. You can, tho, have space in which to see.

There's a Tibetan practice that has new yogis go off and sit by themselves, one day at a time. On the first day they are told to sit and still their mind completely. "No thinking at all!" is what they are told they must do. Know what happens? Yes, like you and me, they cannot still their mind. So on the second day their instructions are to sit and think ALL THE TIME, non-stop. "Do not stop thinking!" is the instruction on day 2. And guess what? They can't do that, either!

So... what's the point?

I think the point is that we're not ultimately trying to control the mind using meditation. We are, however, trying to create the space (awareness) around our thoughts that allows us to see our thoughts as they occur and know that thinking is simply the nature of mind - to jabber, to create random images, to haunt us with nagging doubts and fears. But if we can develop that space, even just a little bit, we will be able to observe more calmly and escape much of the pain and suffering monkey mind creates.

If I read your journal here and your other recent comments you are indeed getting it, and you are starting to find the space, the awareness, that will allow you to see more clearly. If you keep in mind that THAT is your goal you will have an *achievable* objective and be able to manageably see your progress.

Does that make sense?

Yes, it does make sense; I am such a perfection-junkie that I've been letting this busy mind stuff get to me. There are many times when my mind does settle quite nicely through my favorite techniques, but then there are other times when it won't. It has settled a lot more over the past few months than before. I crave that peaceful feeling (and it is craving), don't like the other business, and now I need to investigate that with compassion rather than try too hard to shut it down. I need to be reminded of this over and over, too. Thanks.

I realized some time ago that my drive for perfection was a much bigger handicap than it was a help. It was caused by my undying, laser beam focused desire to please others, especially those I perceived to be in positions of authority. There was a process running in my head that evaluated every situation in that light, and not being able to please made me feel like I was going to die. I was driven by fear of failure, not because *I* wanted to succeed but because I thought I was severely disappointing those others if I didn't succeed.

My practice was very helpful in revealing this to me and, better yet, helping me settle down and realize that I had to be far kinder to myself and far more empowered to make my own way. This has led me to be able to stand up in formerly fearful situations, without fear, and speak truth to power. This is something I was not able to do prior to my practice and the insights it has revealed.

So..... keep going!

Laurel - just wanted to say I have been there, too, and everything Chris suggests resonates with what helped me, also. There's literally nothing wrong with the monkey mind. It's perfectly fine. What's actually important is what you pointed out: "I crave that peaceful feeling and don't like the other business." That's a huge thing to recognize! Accept both states of mind as perfectly fine - they come and go by themselves, and have nothing to do with your practice. Practicing "perfectly" doesn't change them coming and going all by themselves. I guarantee it. Don't even bother trying to shut one down and bring back the other one - think instead about accepting it, just as it is. Here comes busy mind, there goes crazy mind, here comes peaceful mind, there goes tranquil mind... back and forth, back and forth. Isn't it actually quite fascinating to watch? The mind is a strange bird, dancing its little dance. Amazing!

"A little rant about precision in noting:

Everything I've read on noting technique has contributed to making me neurotic about either vocabulary, precision, or speed, and I've never become skilled and precise to my own obsessive-compulsive satisfaction.

I flip-flop techniques regularly- Kenneth-style, Shinzen Young-style, Mahasi-style, noting the 5 hindrances, noting the 6 sense-doors, or just coming up with whatever word seems right. It seems to work anyways . The noting keeps your attention on the stream of perceived phenomena, and that's the beginning and end of its usefulness. Whether you ever get fast or accurate or not doesn't really matter.

Eventually, you'll even start to find that noting is sometimes too coarse, because your sensitivity to the stream of phenomena gets too fast. Nobody can tell you when you get to that point- you have only your gut sense to go on. Once you're there, though, it's good not to let an obsession with finding names block your way.

Then, when your gut sense tells you that you're drifting, you can go back to the noting.

I do think, though, that Kenneth is right to emphasize noting from all 4 "foundations of mindfulness"- that's always a good way to pinpoint where you're stuck. I'm really weak on finding notes for the 3rd foundation (mental states / moods / emotions)."

SPOT ON!!!

"Laurel - just wanted to say I have been there, too, and everything Chris suggests resonates with what helped me, also. There's literally nothing wrong with the monkey mind. It's perfectly fine. What's actually important is what you pointed out: "I crave that peaceful feeling and don't like the other business." That's a huge thing to recognize! Accept both states of mind as perfectly fine - they come and go by themselves, and have nothing to do with your practice. Practicing "perfectly" doesn't change them coming and going all by themselves. I guarantee it. Don't even bother trying to shut one down and bring back the other one - think instead about accepting it, just as it is. Here comes busy mind, there goes crazy mind, here comes peaceful mind, there goes tranquil mind... back and forth, back and forth. Isn't it actually quite fascinating to watch? The mind is a strange bird, dancing its little dance. Amazing! "

SPOT ON !!!!!

I don't know if it's just me, but this website is becoming so slow I could have a 7-course dinner while waiting for a page to load. Getting around to any extent is excruciating. Not that I'm the impatient type (!), but it seems worse than usual, and it's not because the traffic seems particularly heavy as far as I can tell.

Enough grumbling. I'm back in the dukkhas, it seems. This morning I felt as if I'd been the object of a dementor attack (as in Harry Potter); I felt as if I'd never be happy again. My 30 minutes of sitting were uncomfortable and unpleasant. I didn't just have anxiety or monkey mind, I had a sense of going nowhere fast and not liking it. There were physical dukkhas (pain in the chest, briefly) and a sense of futility. The vibrations got harsh and kind of nasty. I was in a bad mood all morning, and have felt a sense of un-ease all day, bordering on paranoia. Some of it could be fallout from life, but some of it honestly feels like a return to the sense of tragedy and sadness I felt in the dukkhas. So there it is. There was even a moment or two of nausea.

I have to get my momentum back. I'm much too absorbed in my work, at the expense of everything else.

Speaking of which, I'm reading St. Teresa's *Interior Castle* for a class, and I could swear she's talking about access concentration, first jhana, and the formless realms in some of the segments I've been reading. It's almost uncanny, although I shouldn't be entirely surprised!

As for the monkey mind: I'm having trouble distinguishing between what Chris, Ona, and others are saying here and just plain unskillful, untrained mindstates. It probably reflects a lack of confidence. To answer Ona, I do not like watching this movie, but that's the dukkha talking, I suspect.