Laurel's practice

(cont.) Chris, I am absolutely a people-pleaser, especially with those in authority. I am always looking over my shoulder for someone to scold me for doing things wrong, being lazy, making a mistake, not taking things seriously enough. It's a conditioned response. It's as if I'm always in school somewhere and the teacher's going to rap me on the knuckles and make me stand in the corner. These responses keep those of us still stuck with them in a state of perpetual childhood in the worst possible sense.

"As for the monkey mind: I'm having trouble distinguishing between what Chris, Ona, and others are saying here and just plain unskillful, untrained mindstates. It probably reflects a lack of confidence. To answer Ona, I do not like watching this movie, but that's the dukkha talking, I suspect."

Yes, confidence will help[ you overcome your currently muddied view.

Laurel, at your core you are always skillful. All the ease you seek is right there for you to uncover. It's not a matter of training your mind (yesterday's topic) as much as it is a matter of simply learning to just be with all the things you are afraid of, that you despise, that appear to be holding you back. *Appear to be* is the key point. Ttry to relax into your experience. You seem to be striving and with every sit re-evaluating your practice in the light of what you consider to be perfection. There is no perfection! There is just what is, right now. BE WITH that. Relax into it. Let it flow.

Our way is to move toward those things but not to fight them, rather to allow them. To see them for what they are. Conditioned responses can be overcome, and almost everything you do is a conditioned response

Stick with it! If I can do this you can do this.

"These responses keep those of us still stuck with them in a state of perpetual childhood in the worst possible sense."

I'm not sure what that means - can you elaborate?

"
As for the monkey mind: I'm having trouble distinguishing between what Chris, Ona, and others are saying here and just plain unskillful, untrained mindstates. It probably reflects a lack of confidence. To answer Ona, I do not like watching this movie, but that's the dukkha talking, I suspect.
"

You are not untrained, at this point. It's different when you are an utter beginner just learning to even pay attention and sit for 30 minutes. At your level, you have noticed you don't like this movie. You have noticed you don't like certain mindstates. There's a very interesting experience to be had: when you feel that awfulness, tension, anxiety, paranoia, pain, etc - imagine you are in a kayak without oars, being carried down a turbulent river. The boat swirls and bounces and jolts this way and that. You want so badly to control it! But try something. Try imagining just flowing with that discomfort. Allow it to carry you along, bouncing, jolting, swirling, heaving and tossing. Just sit back in the kayak, close your eyes, and let the crazy rapids carry the kayak along. It takes courage to let go of trying to control it or wanting to control it. Just trust that it is going where it is going and there's nothing you can do about it. Your mind and body may tremble and fret and twitch and ache, but you won't die. You'll just bounce and swirl along. Relax into the chaos and unpleasantness, and let it do its thing all by itself. See what happens. The whole process of these difficult periods is one that calls for release, relaxing, and surrender. Find the courage to trust that this difficult and unpleasant state serves a very important purpose. Allow it to run its course rather than fighting with it. In fact, the more you fight it, the more you interfere with it running its courrse! It's a very interesting experiment to try letting go and allowing it to be just as it is!

Re: the childhood responses of wanting to please authority and so on - we all have such baggage. I was a big teacher's pet type, too, always wanting to get that gold star. Don't worry about it. You don't need to fix that in order to make progress in your practice. It will fix itself in time. You are aware of it, and that is important. You can notice when you are reacting from that place, and smile at yourself for playing an old game out of habit. No need to try to eradicate it or destroy it. It will gradually become less and less important simply by your noticing it, and giving it a gentle smile. What a funny habit! There it goes again!

"
"These responses keep those of us still stuck with them in a state of perpetual childhood in the worst possible sense."

I'm not sure what that means - can you elaborate?

"

I think giragirasol has helped answer this question--trying to please others means you never grow up enough to know what it is you need. I do try to think of it just as a peculiar habit, something that keeps manifesting itself over and over, not an intention on my part.

At this point I am just wanting to get back to my practice. Spent the day in a state of grey depression, unfocused, low energy. Sat for half an hour at the local meditation center. It felt pretty good. A panoramic focus seems to help the most, with some noting here and there but not an effort at doing it for the entire sit. I felt myself sinking, not really even into dreamlike states, but deeper relaxation, some of it accompanied by bouts of paranoia. I didn't notice any vibrations until closer to the end of the time. Some restlessness as well. I am not worried any more, just letting it be, although I miss being in equanimity and want to get back there. The fatigue and depression may have to do with the week I just had as well as my not spending enough time practicing.

Had a hard time getting to sleep last night, so I meditated for 40 minutes until the timer went off, then for another 8 to 10 minutes afterward. I began with a one-point focus on the breath, but didn't really settle down until I widened the focus. I began to get the itches on the face that I associate with 3C's; this continued until I began shaking, which got to be more and more intense. Eventually I got the constriction / pain crawling up the back of my neck and head, which became extremely painful and harsh. I waited it out; it would subside a bit and then come back, over and over. When it eventually subsided the itchiness on the face started up again, only this time it felt more like really harsh, static-electric style vibrations. I have never before observed itches morphing into a more global experience of vibrations like that. The shaking of the arms and torso had settled into vibrations as well. Things finally became calmer and I ended the session.

I haven't had a session like this in quite some time. It seemed like an energy release. There was some paranoia accompanying the more vivid sensations, but I noted that and didn't let it throw me. Today I'm still in a mood of greyish depression, part of which may be a result of the weather. It isn't a case of clinical depression, just a feeling of fatigue and the blahs.

Last night: 30 mins. Was harsh and unpleasant. Flaming itches all over the face, one in the ear canal. Eventually gave way to prickly vibrations. There wasn't any shaking, no pain, just unpleasantness. Off the cushion: still feeling blah, and today it's sunny and pleasant out. I haven't been able to sleep, which isn't helping. I feel a great weariness and frustration that I don't have enough time to practice, too much work. Trying to get beyond that. On Sat. I'm going to a half-day retreat, looking forward to that.

I haven't written in a couple of days, but I meditated both Thursday and yesterday for 45 minutes and both times had pleasant sits. I was a little dreamy from time to time, but had the combination of dreaminess and vibrations that characterized my sits a couple of weeks ago.

Today I went to a half-day retreat. I was tired and actually fell asleep at one point (I snored ever so softly; hope no one noticed!!). I am tired from working so much, and sleeping not enough. Sitting is actually a relief when I can sink into relaxation. There were three 30-minute sits and two walking meditation sessions. On the last sit, I noted quite diligently through most of it. I was focused for the walking meditation.

I saw some light shows both yesterday and today, pulsing color wheels of purple and orange, some washes of off-white giving way to velvety black. At one point today I briefly saw a flash of a geometric figure that resembled a snowflake. Interesting. There was only a little itching, no shakiness, some body aches but no mysterious pressure or pain.

Feelings of being bummed out at work have been uppermost on my mind off the cushion. I see intellectually how much this narrative is reinforcing my sense of a self, but I can't seem to cut myself loose from it for any length of time. I realize that I can't drop it through an act of will, because acts of will reinforce the very self-ing that is at the source of the problem. So I am continuing to suffer with it. I want to find more time to meditate. My increased workload is making that difficult. That's about the size of it.

For what it's worth, I think there are two components to eventually dropping it.

The first is knowing whether the thinking is actually helping. Sometimes future thoughts are appropriate. Other times these feelings reinforce the sense of self, giving it some "thing", to fill in the gap of an unknown future. It feels safer to fill a gap, even if future is actually unknown. If you know it's just filler, having that kind of perspective helps things naturally loosen.

The other thing that can be done when the recurring/automated worries come up is to say: "look how it worries". Basically, you are recognizing the existence of worry as an automatic thing, validating it but not necessarily needing it. You should only do this with the spirit of a loving parent, with care and concern. Basically the child has a skinned knee and you need to look closely at it, but that's balanced by knowing the scratches aren't a big deal. So your noting "look how it worries" is to remind you that it is "just" a mind object that can be noted, but also it is a mind object that must be looked at and experienced deeply. The child needs to know you care for it.

You're probably right that "cutting through" with "will" is probably a temporary fix that would ultimately build another habit.

Another thing to remember is that meditation kinda occurs within the gaps of thoughts and sensations. So nothing needs to go away permanently to make progress. It's just the moment by moment attention to what ever is there that needs to happen. If something is made into "the problem" or "the answer" chances are that's ultimately going to be another trap. Just keep noting, looking, experiencing, noticing, etc. the discrete things that arise.

In the higher nanas, there are a lot of things that can be noted by saying "look how it thinks, look how it feels, look how it sees, look how it imagines, look how it adjusts the body" etc. Just make sure you don't use that style of noting to "get rid of" or "kill" or "ignore" whatever arises. It should be a wonderous and interesting way to note the amazing nature of the moment, even worrying is interesting if looked at from that perspective. Look how it worries!

I read Amy Schmidt's book on Dipa Ma yesterday, and was inspired by her insistence that even householders with jobs and families can practice hard. So I sat after my son was in bed last night, setting the timer for 40 minutes. I blew through that and ended up sitting for well over an hour. It was a wild ride. The first 30 minutes or so were lots of dreaminess, full of visual imagery that came on thick and fast. As Betawave suggested, I treated it like something impersonal--actually, it manifested to me as something impersonal, just image after image coming and going, some of it feeling dreamlike, some of it feeling more wakeful. Then I got some monster itches, then I started shaking, and then I went through a series of alternations between violent shaking and calmer vibrations. I got the pressure in the back of the head for some of it. The shaking was actually different from anything I've had in the past, more like being rocked back and forth at times. I remember thinking I was glad I wasn't in a meditation hall full of people! It kept coming on and then subsiding, coming on and then subsiding. In between there were itches acting as triggers, some of them on my sitting bones, which seemed to propel the rocking from the base. At a certain calm point I decided it was time to go to bed. Maintained the focus as I went to sleep.

Then this morning I meditated for another 40 minutes. This was much calmer, beginning with a gradual coming into focus, then fine vibrations that went on for the duration of the session. More visual imagery and thinking. The thinking isn't bothering me as much now because I am realizing that I've been operating under a false set of assumptions, believing somehow that the self is going to disappear in meditation. I have come to understand that having the self disappear altogether is a feature of either very deep absorption in a jhana--which I haven't experienced yet--or else stream entry (ditto). It's like expecting a toddler to be reasonable. So all is well.

Did some yoga afterward, felt a calm focus. Now I start my day. If I am tempted to feel sorry for myself I'll think about Dipa Ma. Oh, and I have signed up for a two-week meditation retreat with Leigh Brasington next August. Wish it were now!

"The thinking isn't bothering me as much now because I am realizing that I've been operating under a false set of assumptions, believing somehow that the self is going to disappear in meditation. I have come to understand that having the self disappear altogether is a feature of either very deep absorption in a jhana--which I haven't experienced yet--or else stream entry (ditto)."

Right on! But just to be nitpicky, remember that the self won't ever disappear at all... because it isn't there to begin with.

At stream entry, the factory that generates an image of the "self" will simply go on strike for a fraction of a second, but that will be enough for the sense that your "self" is some kind of unbroken ribbon of "your" being to break forever.

Meanwhile, you'll be thinking and dreaming and conceptualizing and all of it, right up to the microsecond before, and starting again a microsecond after. Not a problem. But I am pretty sure you will see a distinct drop in the sense that "thinking" is in itself painful.

"In the higher nanas, there are a lot of things that can be noted by saying "look how it thinks, look how it feels, look how it sees, look how it imagines, look how it adjusts the body" etc. Just make sure you don't use that style of noting to "get rid of" or "kill" or "ignore" whatever arises. It should be a wonderous and interesting way to note the amazing nature of the moment, even worrying is interesting if looked at from that perspective. Look how it worries!"

Good stuff!

At the risk of repeating myself--what a fantastic thread! Thanks, Laurel!
Your dedication to practice amid tough work and family responsibilities is really inspiring. Awesome news about the Leigh Brasington retreat. That should be great!

Joel, I'm constantly inspired by your dedication as well. We're both in the same boat, with families and jobs. At the moment I'm working all evening, which I would dearly love not to have to do. Oh well.

Got in half an hour of jhana practice late afternoon, and was nodding a lot, but not actually sleeping (I don't think . . . then again, who knows?). I had about five minutes of nice absorption, and a lot of climbing back on the proverbial horse again.

Rob, the "factory" analogy is priceless. I'm going to quote from the Dipa Ma book: "A simple moment . . , an instantaneous transition took place, so quiet and delicate, that it seemed as if nothing at all had happened . . . in it her life had been profoundly and irrevocably transformed."

40 mins. this a.m., tired, some dreaminess, gentle vibrations. Overall refreshing. One itch that I noticed, but it didn't lead anywhere. Everything very mellow.

I woke up in the night and couldn't get back to sleep. I finally caught on to the fact that I was getting sucked into speculation and rumination about work stuff, so I got up and meditated. Set the timer for 40 mins., continued on at least 20 after that, did about half an hour of walking meditation and then sat for 40 minutes more. So I had myself a nice mini-retreat in the middle of the night! I was smart enough to sleep in a bit this morning, though.

After a lengthy period of establishing samadhi and letting myself become more and more focused, I experienced another lengthy period of very harsh itches and vibrations on my face. These eventually tapered off to fine vibrations in the upper body. I tended to do some thinking throughout this process of whether or not I was traveling up the path in any discernible way; after awhile noted this thinking. I'm getting better at letting thoughts happen and just noting them rather than trying to get them to stop. There were no dukkhas that I could tell, some sleepiness but not much.

I finally decided to walk would be a good thing, to bring my focus to my lower body, so I got up and did the walking meditation. Remained focused through this, but was a bit unbalanced. The floor didn't exactly sway under my feet, but I wasn't steady. I used my feet on the floor as my anchor.

Sat again, this time clearer, more vibrations in upper torso and arms. It was more relaxed in general than the previous sitting. After the timer went off, I went to sleep easily.

I hadn't meditated since that night of lost sleep until this morning, 45 minutes. In the meantime I've suffered from relentless insomnia and overwork. I have not been able to use the time awake at night to meditate since Wednesday. I don't know why, but I'm moving on.

This morning: lots of sleepiness, but also fine vibrations. Got restless, checked the timer, almost bailed, but kept on with it. Off cushion: got depressed for a couple of days over bad stuff from three years ago resurfacing. Had some unwelcome reminders of an extremely painful time in my marriage. Talked it out, feeling okay now. I don't think this was a return of DN stuff. Meditation was basically pleasant, although sleepy.

Tried to meditate again, but it's just too sad right now. A long-time member of our choir didn't show up for practice Wednesday night, which was unlike him. Then he failed to show up in church this morning, and he was supposed to read the lesson. So a small group went to his place, and you can probably guess the rest. There was no warning at all. His dog was badly dehydrated, and possibly won't make it. His place is right across the street from the church; my husband was tending the dog out on the front lawn, trying to help her drink something. It was pitiful to watch. She is being treated at the vet's.

It's as if the sight of that poor little dog is an excruciating portal into all the dumb, innocent, uncomprehending suffering in this world. I can't stop crying, and at the same time I am aware of a luxuriance to the sadness, a kind of wallowing in it. But other stuff happened this weekend--it's been a hard weekend--that brought up unbearable pain from the not-too-distant past. Talking about it makes it "my" story all over again, and the luxuriance intensifies. I don't want that.

I've been trying to follow the thread asking, what if this is all there is. I can't get my mind around what people are now saying. The only way of being I really understand is developmental. Yet here is Bob, suddenly gone. In a few days the hole in the fabric of reality will close up and there will be no more sense of a "now" with Bob in it. There won't even be a sense of an absence. The only reality of Bob will be a past of which he is vaguely remebered as being a part.

I likewise can't comprehend the discussion of compassion without affect. I can't make sense of a response to suffering that doesn't at some level involve sadness. Paralyzing grief, no, but I can't imagine no feeling of sadness whatsoever, as long as suffering exists. But I am in no position even to speculate about such things right now.

Kenneth's explanation of the "horizontal" vs. "vertical" approach to enlightenment actually helped me figure out a few things. I feel as if my own horizontal development is extensive; it feels like a great big puddle extending out in all directions around me. The sadness isn't even about me; it's the sadness of being alive. The more aware, the more alive, the more open one is to feeling. I used to see myself as suffering more than other people because so many sad, heavy things had happened in my life. I no longer define myself according to that exceptionalism. I also used to want to just weep and weep and weep until "I" dissolved in the torrent. I think now I see that as the desire for deliverance--the desire to let go of this self. There is a tradition in Christian mystical theology that cherishes tears as a way of merging with Christ, the Man of Sorrows. I can understand that. But again, the most astute writers would warn their readers that tears in and of themselves have no ultimate value, and cultivating them as an experience is dangerous--just as cultivating jhanas can be dangerous, I think.

This is where I am right at the present moment.

Nice. That's hard stuff to share, Laurel, and it's nice that you are able to do so here.

Thanks, Chris. Actually, this all feels very 10th nana-ish. I'm not saying the thing itself isn't sad, but that's the filter through which I'm experiencing it.

"Thanks, Chris. Actually, this all feels very 10th nana-ish. I'm not saying the thing itself isn't sad, but that's the filter through which I'm experiencing it. "

You seem to be experiencing this quite differently than if you hadn't practiced at all. Do you find your practice has proved beneficial?