John's practice

Started this at DhO but moving it here, hoping for feedback:

11/22/11 8:33 PM
Amazingly enough, in all of my studies and meditation, with all my breath focused meditation, somehow the instruction to focus on the pleasant aspects of the breath was either never brought up or escaped my attention.

I am interested to see what happens when I cultivate this focus, as before I have always let any discomfort or pleasure pass without any grasping or focus, whenever possible. I like the idea of a positive feedback loop that might bring me some peace. It would be invaluable to me, as I have suffered from pretty much lifelong anxiety.

Correct me if I am misinformed. I am going to do my usual breath focused meditation, only instead of just bringing my mind back to my breath, I will focus on any pleasant sensations. Time to practice!

11/23/11 11:48 AM
Wow! I found my meditation to be far more pleasurable than I could have imagined! I started off with focus on my breath, fell into good concentration, and then scanned for pleasant sensations and focused on those, then generalized them throughout my body. I smiled, and used the feeling of happiness that arose, focusing on it, associating it with the other good feelings I was experiencing, and I felt happy and calm. It was greatly physically pleasant, and very mentally soothing and pleasant as well. I was interrupted after about 25 minutes, and had to do a few things, but I went back to it and repeated the same process quite easily.

After I was finished, the pleasant, positive feelings continued for while, and then the usual worries started creeping back in, which I observed as thoughts and physical sensations. I think this is labeling. I don't remember where I read about it, but it helps just to mentally note exactly what I really experience. A thought is just a thought. A pang in my heart is just a physical sensation. It helps alleviate the anxiety.

11/23/11 5:38 PM
I sat for an hour today, and again, it was extremely pleasant, though not what I would call "rapture" or anything like that. However, it was very pleasant, and eventually my thoughts stopped coming and my concentration deepened. I felt expanded, feeling the space around me. I tried focusing even more on the breath at my nostrils, but that was not as good, so I refocused on the pleasant sensations, both mentally and physically. My concentration was steady, so I decided to work on something I have been curious about, which is "form is emptiness, emptiness is form, form is nothing but ..." you know how it goes. The "form is emptiness part" was never hard to grasp, but I could never see how emptiness was form. I'm not saying I fully grasp it now, but for the first time I could intuitively see that maybe emptiness is, literally, form -- like exactly the same thing. Like this emptiness that is me, and everything else, is form -- me, and everything else. That probably sounds stupid.

Next time, when my concentration is deep and steady, I am going to try the direct pointing method. Instead of asking "Who am I?" as I have in the past, I will meditate on the truth -- that "I" does not exist. I will probe into the deep falseness of the self, the fiction that seeks. Me. Ha, that sounds stupid too, "I" will probe into the falseness of me! Oh my.

11/25/11 2:34 PM
Busy day yesterday, so I only had a 30 minute sit. I watched my breath and let my thoughts subside, focused on the pleasant sensations and let them flow throughout my body, smiled and focused on the pleasant mental state, letting that mental state widen and deepen. When it felt stable after a while, I did switch to the direct pointing investigation -- to directly see the self as non-existent. Not surprisingly, I didn't have any great breakthroughs. All the time, I touched back to the breath for grounding, and kept some focus on the pleasant feelings and mental state.

Today, due to interruption, I had another 30 minute sit. This time I just focused more on the breath, the very pleasant physical and mental sensations. For some time I let the physical sensations expand as I breathed in, then focused on the mental sensations as I breathed out. Towards the end, I really increased my mental focus, which seems to give me a feeling of more space, an expansion of sorts.

I hope to get a longer uninterrupted session in later.

11/27/11 12:21 PM
Sat for 45 and then 30 minutes yesterday, an hour today. Now it is different. The pleasure is much less and my mind wanders again and again. I am not sure what to do. If I bear down hard I can stop my mind from wandering for a bit, but I am pretty sure that is not the way to practice. What I do is just refocus on the breath, over and over.

I was hoping that the concentration method would go better, and it seemed to be, but now I am having the same familiar problem with staying focused. It is hard not to be discouraged.

Any help or advice would be appreciated.

11/28/11 8:09 PM
Had three 30 minute sits today. The first was much better than yesterday. The next two were just so-so. To keep my mind from wandering, I just keep counting breaths 1 to 10 over and over. Towards the end of my last sit I found that silently saying the number on the in breath and the out breath helped, then saying them twice was even better, then finally saying them three times for every in and every out breath was best of all. I don't know if this is the right thing to do, but it seems better than getting lost in thought over and over.

I'll just keep going.

11/29/11 8:53 PM
Finally something happens! I realized that the breath counting just wasn't doing it for me, and knowing that I am a very visual person, I decided to try these instructions.

1. Get a kasina object. You only need one. Cereal bowls or small plates work great. It should be about 8-10" in diameter, without designs. Earth colors are best, as they don't give you eye strain.
2. Prop the bowl against the wall.
3. Sit about 4-6' away.
4. Stare at the bowl.
5. Let us know what happens. (You may be amazed at the antics a simple cereal bowl can perform.)

So, I found a round eight inch black plastic lid and double-taped it onto my white wall at my sitting eye level. Then I sat about 4-5 feet away and started counting breaths. I didn't expect much, but as always, I was hopeful.

I was amazed at what my kasina object did. It was surrounded by bright light, it popped into 3D, it even seemed to rotate like a planet, and then it disappeared! I was surprised, but it came back in a few seconds, and this went on and on, with lots of strange effects. However, I did not feel like this was getting me to any jhana. I kept trying to relax more, and kept watching for about another fifteen minutes ... THEN it happened. Definitely an altered state. My vision, that had been focused solely on my kasina object, suddenly went wide and I could see the entire wall at once. My body fully relaxed when this happened, and it felt very, very good. It was different. I was locked in.

I kept expecting to lose it, but it was very stable. It was like my outer vision was more in focus than the center, but I could see everything fine. Sometimes the kasina object stopped doing much of anything, once it disappeared for about five seconds, but the state continued even if it just looked like a black lid. It was very strange feeling, but not in an unpleasant way. It was very pleasant.

11/30/11 9:07 PM
Ah, the world conspired against me today, and I could only spare 25 minutes for kasina. I think I was coming close again when I received a phone call. Several times it seemed to almost tip into the altered state, but it just never made it there. My commuter meditations are much more steady though, without so much internal chatter. I look forward to a long kasina session tomorrow evening, or Friday for sure.

12/1/11 8:44 PM
OK, I had my usual two 30-minute commuter meditations. Never anything exciting. Doesn't feel like it goes anywhere, but it's pleasant enough I suppose, counting breaths to 10. I did have time for 40 minutes of kasina. While I didn't reach an altered state, it was interestingly different. This time, for some reason, the image was constantly splitting. There was the usual cycles of bright white halo effects, textures appearing, lots of 3D popping, but this time I was frequently looking at two images instead of one. I did feel very close to going into the "wide angle" altered state of before, but it never quite happened. I wasn't particularly trying for anything, just letting it be whatever it wanted to be. One time the two images shrank, becoming much more sharp, but a lot smaller. At the end, while seeing two images, they shrank, and then the right image shrank more until it was very small and seemed to move towards me, finally seeming very near, almost to my right eye. So the two images now appeared to be different both in size and location. That is when my phone alarm went off, and it's hard to shut off, otherwise I would have observed this latest weirdness a little longer.

"somehow the instruction to focus on the pleasant aspects of the breath was either never brought up or escaped my attention." - havent read the rest of your thread yet but I saw this and had to comment - I have found that it is possible to generate pleasure in the sensation, and it seems helpful at times, but I also noticed that it made my attention a bit 'wild' and unstable as well - you might want to read the following about balancing stability and vivdness/clarity (full-minded attention). I found it helpful.

dharmatreasure.com/meditation-manual/on-...areness-vs-dullness/

Thanks for the tip. Today, after reading on this site, I switched from counting breaths to detailed noting on my commuter meditations, 2 X 30 minutes. Noting goes against what I was previously taught, so I had my doubts thinking it would be all distraction, but it wasn't. I was actually very much better than counting breaths, in many ways. Most of it was just noting little itches, the warm and then cool air passing over my fingers, the light strobing on my eyelids through the window. Not many thoughts at all. Towards the end of the last noting sit, everything became very bright white for a while, and I felt really good.

I had time for an hour of kasina meditation this evening. It went like before, with the usual halo effects, 3D popping, and reverse image coming out. I was feeling close to the altered state again when my kasina object FELL OFF THE WALL -- noooooooo! Haha. I taped it back up, but it seemed like I really did have to start all over again. I was just letting it do its thing, and went through the usual, and then finally arrived at the point where the images split, and the left one stayed back while the right one shrank and approached my right eye. This time I had plenty of time to examine it. It was like a large brown marble a few inches away from my eye. Sometimes it rotated like a planet. It seemed to have a little fuzz on it or something as well. I sat there, just relaxing but staying focused. It did feel like I reached a different state where I was aware of everything around me, but I didn't get that same "wide angle" effect as before which is definitely an altered state. The marble receded back to the wall. Eventually it came back again and I looked at it a while longer, noting that the slight focus pressure that is usually in the middle of my forehead was now over my left eye instead. At the 50 minute point it receded back to the wall again. I tried to keep going, but my focus was worn out.

Oh, and this time my kasina object never disappeared ... except when it fell off the wall, of course.

Another hour of kasina meditation. The usual, only the reverse image jumps around a lot, a few inches in any direction. Sometimes the entire kasina object seems to jump around as well. All the usual stuff, halo, 3D, less splitting. When it splits, the right object is like a ghost rising from the solid left object. I focus on the right. This time it did not shrink and advance. The right and left took turns disappearing. When the objects merged again, I seemed to be in a relaxed state with expanding awareness of things all around. Overall, a tame session by comparison, but this one was morning and the others have been evening.

I did another 30 minutes kasina. This time not much at all, just bright halo effects, some 3D, no splitting. My kasina object (a black rubber lid) fell off the wall again, so I used it as a pattern to make a cardboard circle. I stuck that on the wall and did another 30 minutes. The same, not much happening. I thought I was going to get the hang of it and be able to discern the jhanas as I moved through them, but my practice appears to be going in reverse after a lot of what seemed like success in the first long sit.

If I've learned anything though, it is to keep going. When things don't seem to be going right, I look for advice, I make adjustments, but I keep going.

If anyone else is experienced with this I would appreciate some input.

30 minutes kasina this morning. Even less happening than before. This is what I expected in the beginning, just looking at the object and not much else. No focused state that I noticed, just irritation. I was so hopeful that kasina meditation would be a sort of refuge I could use to rest, relax, and be happy for a while when I really needed it. It started off so promising. I thought for once something was going to come easy. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

Another hour of kasina meditation. I was worried, but it all came back like before when I counted to 10, "1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1", "2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" on inhale and exhale, never giving the mind a chance to wander. I wasn't taught to bludgeon the mind in this way, but it is very effective for keeping focused. I think it is like noting, just keeping the mind busy, but I can't note very quickly at this point. Anyway, my concentration was very deep, and my vision was wide, aware of everything at once, including sounds outside, without it being distracting at all. The state was very stable and soothing, doing wonders for my mood afterward. Just having this means a lot to me.

This is great John! It's interesting, some people have trouble cultivating concentration initially and they need to do the "momentary concentration" practice of noting. You seem to be really finding the sweet spot with kasina/breath meditation that cultivates tranquility!

Just remember that practice goes through many different themes, so don't expect practice to stay constant. In fact, practice will eventually evolve to having the same kind of acceptance you have during pleasant states even during unpleasant states.

The main thing is to keep doing what your doing when things are working. And I'd say your practice is working!

Thanks betawave, your advice is very helpful. Today I had 2 x 30 minute noting sits, an extremely interesting 25 minute walking/noting exercise, and good hard focus for 45 minutes of kasina meditation. The instruction for walking/noting were to break down walking into discreet steps and note them, so lifting the foot was "lift" then I chose to say "drop" to put the foot down, and finally "push" as I propelled myself forward. It became very amusing. I felt like a wind-up toy. It was also exhausting because that is a LOT of noting, very fast.

Nothing special with the kasina, so once my concentration was deep and steady I just worked on "form is emptiness, emptiness is form" because that one really hooks me in.

I have no idea what "path" or step I am on. I guess it doesn't really matter.

2 x 30 noting, 50 minute kasina. Nothing special. Not much in the way of visual effect now, just the halo effect, reverse image, and object disappearing at times. Good steady concentration though. No wide angle effect, but still aware of everything around me.

2 x 30 minutes noting, 20 minutes walking, 30 minutes kasina. Everything is fine. Nothing special happening. Trying to be more mindful throughout the day. I am surprised that my kasina work started off with so much wild visual stuff and more definite states, and now has become very mundane, with good concentration, but just a very steady focused state. Maybe this is good.

2 x 30 minutes noting. 45 minutes kasina. Great concentration, intense focus. Periods of the room seeming to get brighter. Experience of awareness from the back of the head to the eyes. Can feel something working in the middle of the forehead. Good mindfulness for much of the day.

Lazy today, just one hour of kasina meditation. Extremely good concentration. Nothing unusual to report. Since my focus was stable and nothing was going on, I contemplated the "Dropping Ashes on the Buddha" koan for a while. Nothing.

Very tired today, but I sat for one hour of kasina anyway. Mind wandering a lot, but still oddly enough my focus wasn't really all that bad. The thoughts didn't stop my focus on the object. I have learned that if I really, really relax, the circle will split, then I watch the MasterCard logo looking thing for a while, or relax some more and the circles get really far apart. For me, the relaxing part seems to be much more difficult than keeping my concentration. As always, I wonder if I'm doing it right, and what it all means. It does seem to work a spot on the middle of my forehead.

Did one hour of kasina, then another 40 minutes which was interrupted. No matter how much I relaxed, nothing happened. The first sit my mind wandered a lot. The second one my focus became increasingly solid, until I had no more thoughts ... then the phone rang, and I had to get up and do something. I've been feeling lonely and isolated for the past few days, even though I live in a house full of people. I need feedback.

Seems like a good point in your practice to get more granular in your descriptions of your sits.

For noting style practices, there are a lot of good examples on this site. Basically, it's easier to give feedback if you give more examples of the things you are noting in chronological order. This will help place you on the maps.

For kasina sits, same thing, but it's about describing what the image of the kasina does.

Saw your other thread, seems like you're having some doubts about the practice or at least wondering about how long it takes... here's the trick that will help you make progress --- there is no getting around the doubts or the wondering about progress, but you are not powerless: you can "note" that they are occuring and make them an object of investigation.

What do doubting thoughts feel like? When are you having "thinking of progress" thoughts? How do you recognize a frustration thought? Can you experience them as thoughts and not totally claim them as your self? (The both are and are not your self, but they definately are thoughts, what is the experience of having thoughts?)

If you are aware of it, "you" are not "it".

One thing I can say is that whether I'm trying concentration or noting (or choiceless awareness) I still have thoughts. Sometimes they're intrusive, especially with the concentration these days (I do mindfulness of breathing counting 3x10 at the beginning of each sit) but regardless when I settle down I just watch the thoughts come and go, along with itches, aches and pains, tingling, tickling, coolness, heat, tension (lots of that with anxiety) and occasional pleasure or sadness. I used to be bothered by thoughts but now not so much. I also sometimes am plagued by sleepiness, but I don't mind it so much unless I'm really sleep deprived, in which case trying to slog through a meditation session is an ordeal.

I would love to weigh in on your other thread, but I can't answer your question because however long it takes, I'm still in the middle of it. I'm slip-sliding between Re-observation and Equanimity. I can say I'm not bothered, but if you look at my thread you'll see that I'd be lying. I was ready to roll up the mat a couple of weeks ago. Now I feel that the distance I have on these phenomena is worth the effort.

All the best to you on your path. Betawave is right--you need to record the kinds of phenomena that are coming up in your noting practice. Your kasina practice sounds very strong. Please keep posting!

Thank you both for your help. My noting is very consistent, but I don't know what is all means. Keep in mind that I am riding in a commuter van during my noting sits. This morning, which was typical, went like this:

Rising, falling, bouncing, road sounds, rising, falling, good feeling, lights flicker, rising, falling, wind sounds, road sounds, feels good, rising, falling, bouncing, road sounds, car sounds, rising, falling, thinking, feels good, bouncing, rising, falling ...

It pretty much goes like that for 30 minutes. The constant "rising" and "falling" is my breath, the "feels good" is rather strange -- my feet and lower legs, everything below the knees, feel extremely good almost all the time. I mean really extremely pleasurable. If I focus on the feeling, it is almost too intense, but in a good way. This has been going on for a long time, maybe over a year. I have no idea why, but any time I note, it is very prominant. Sometimes I have itches, but normally I just feel good, bounce a little as I ride along, hear the sounds of the tires on the road or the wind whistling by, and every once in a while I lapse into thought.

My kasina used to do all kinds of weird stuff, but now it usually just alternates between being dark and having a very bright halo, and having a lighter overlay of some kind, not very bright. My kasina is the color of cardboard, like a shipping box, which is what it is made of. This used to happen a lot more frequently, but now it rarely splits into two overlapping circles for a while, then slowly the circles spread out wider, and then they collapse back into one -- and can repeat for a while. When this happens, I will feel it right in the middle of my forehead, and the feeling will still be there for quite a while after I stop.

Where I am on the map, I have no idea, but I would be interested to know how to best continue.

"I would be interested to know how to best continue.
"

I know it's tricky to note during commutes -- the motion of the vehicle can be the dominant observation. That said, my suggestion is to work on building your "vocabulary", see:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Detailed+Noting+is+Better

Try to include more mind states (feelings, emotions, thoughts) in addition to sensations.

Don't worry about getting this perfect right off the bat... it takes some time to work up your chops.

Hope that helps!

(p.s. to others.... is there a good practice thread for John to read that provides a good example of noting vocabulary?)