John's practice

John, this sounds interesting. Are you still noting on your commute? I'm curious if you notice any differences with that practice.

"
John, this sounds interesting. Are you still noting on your commute? I'm curious if you notice any differences with that practice.

"

My scheduled changed, so now I drive in. I'm not much good at driving meditation. However, I do some walking meditation, so I'll try that today and see if it is any different from usual.

My walking meditation and an hour with the kasina were uneventful. My focus is extremely good, and I probably could have sat for three hours no problem, but it just felt like good, solid equanimity to me. Two or three times the lights did seem to dim briefly, but this might have been the electricity in my house. Nothing followed the incidents. I noticed a few bright sparks as well during the sit. It might be nothing more than looking for such things. Overall, it seemed pretty much like every other good session I've had for months on end.

Now I just don't know anymore. An hour today of no focus at all. My mind wandered all over the place and I was often completely lost in thought. Emotional pain came up to note, but then my mind wandered off into all kinds of planning, ruminating, and fantasy. I tried noting but my mind kept wandering off. Finally I just did machine gun "Who am I?" ... but I couldn't keep it up for long, then my mind wandered off again. I made to access concentration at best. It seemed like a wasted hour. Some days are like this, I guess.

What don't you know?

"What don't you know?"

I don't know what path I am on, what stage I am in, what jhanas I can access, if any. I don't know if I'm practicing correctly, if I am making progress, or why my practice is so inconsistent. I don't know if I've ever experienced A&P, fruitions or landed a path previously. About the only thing I am certain about is the PCEs. I've had those. I've also had a lot of weird experiences that could have been those other things, but I don't know for sure.

So another hour with the kasina. I also don't know if the kasina is the right way to go. It has been six months of at least an hour a day with the kasina. Six months and my mind is still wandering off almost as much as it did yesterday. I am spending a lot of time daydreaming. I try to note, but forget.

The only possible explanation for the recent breakdown in concentration might be that I sold something that has been lying around in my house for 15 years. It was loaned to me to do a software project, but after a lot of work on my part they refused distribution (and did their own in-house version instead) and I never made a dime, so given that the item was worth far less than the time I had put in, I considered it mine. But apparently that isn't the way my meditative mind sees it, so I kept feeling guilty, like I stole something.

Anyway, I finally gave in and emailed the guy who loaned me the item, letting him know that I sold the item and offering to send him the money if he wants to claim it. So maybe now I will be able to focus again. It seems unfair to have to be perfectly moral even to a rat like this guy.

45 minutes kasina. Focus a little better but still not good. Thoughts still wandering.

It seems like you are judging your sits by the quietness of the mind, correct? That can happen when things really become calm, it's a much preferable state than a busy mind

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but waking up isn't created by accessing, maintaining, or having a quiet mind!

A quiet mind is just the shamatha side of experience, the other side is the investigation (vispassina). The interesting thing is vispassina seems to be the most important element. Many people here have "popped" in the middle of a thought, in the middle of experiencing sensations.

Not knowing where we are is fine, even a good thing. Because it reminds that all we can do in this practice is pay close attention to experience and investigate -- we are missing something in experience, it's something very inimate and close and personal so we overlook it.

The little window for seeing it is in the solidness of a thought or sensation, or in the passing/fading/disappearing of a thought or sensation. So this moment needs to be looked at.

Sticky things that we get trapped in are judging thoughts, practicing thoughts, analysis thoughts, focusing thoughts --- any comparing or context creating thought at all. It's okay to have all of these, they will naturally happen because that's what our mind does! All we need to do is seem them as thought objects. To get the object-ness of a thought in the present moment.

Other sticky things are the wide open sensations: clearness, openness, calm, tranquility, bliss, relaxation, ease, dullness, spacing out, confusion, indifference, comfort, equanimity. All of these can be recognized, therefore they are not it, not us. But these open states are so comforting that we identify with them. We don't see the object-ness of them.

cont.

So no worries, the practice is the same: be kind to yourself, allow yourself to gently investigate this moment.

There's no pressure. It can't be figured out or made to happen, No one knows when it will happen.

If we feel angry or frustrated or under pressure -- that's just us wanting to make it happen. It's our default way of going through life... so of course all this ill will starts to bubble up.

But the neat thing is, all this ill will is just another mind object. We can look at the object-ness of even this!

Looking at the object-ness of experience is the doorway.

And so everything is fuel for practice, regardless of what path/stage/jhana we're at.

Tranquility is important, investigation is important.

I am judging my sits based on whether or not I am mindful. If my mind is wandering off and I'm thinking about paying my bills, what will I make for dinner, or what I would do if I had more money, that to me is wasted time. If I can only refocus for a matter of seconds before my mind wanders off for several minutes, I am getting very little practice in. I try to catch the exact moment that my mind wanders away, but it is so subtle that I usually don't catch it. There is just a sound, and it reminds me of the sound the furnace makes, which reminds me that I need to replace it, which reminds me that I need more money, which leads to a thousand other thoughts until I finally remember that I'm supposed to be meditating. I'm just sitting there thinking. That isn't practice.

When my focus is really good, this doesn't happen much at all. I hear a sound and note that it reminds me of the furnace. I feel the tendency of the mind to set off a chain of thought, I sometimes watch the chain of thought unfold, but I am not drawn in -- I am still mindful.

To me, when I am lost in thought, that is not meditation. It isn't that I view equanimity as better. In fact, I think being mindful during emotional turmoil is actually better, because there is much more to learn. I was getting really bored and frustrated with equanimity not long ago for exactly that reason -- endless smooth equanimity doesn't seem to provide any insight. I might simply be wrong about that, but it is how I feel.

However, daydreaming while I am supposed to be mindful seems definitely off track. If daydreaming could provide progress along the path, I would be enlightened many times over.

But maybe I just have the wrong idea. You are right that I feel the big moment will only come during the deeply focused state.

I hear what you are saying. However, the time on the path that I have the most "losing track in thought" moments is in Equanimity. I don't think its a bad thing. I have gotten my most profound insights because of this. EQ can be boring, so I think the mind says "Hey, I need to occupy myself with something" and tries to go back to it's default mode. It can really show you how your brain just generates this stuff on its own with "you."

I know, not everyone is like this, but last time I got a path right when I noticed that my mind was wandering I got a "total blip out" then huge fruition.

"I hear what you are saying. However, the time on the path that I have the most "losing track in thought" moments is in Equanimity. I don't think its a bad thing. I have gotten my most profound insights because of this. EQ can be boring, so I think the mind says "Hey, I need to occupy myself with something" and tries to go back to it's default mode. It can really show you how your brain just generates this stuff on its own with "you."

I know, not everyone is like this, but last time I got a path right when I noticed that my mind was wandering I got a "total blip out" then huge fruition."

That makes me feel better about my constantly wandering thoughts.

Too much upsetting life stuff happened on Tuesday to practice, so I did two hours straight yesterday. My focus was back to being very good, with few wandering thoughts. I spent pretty much the entire two hours just trying to disembed from everything. Wherever there was "I" ... that was let go. When I was down to bare awareness, I tried to let that go as well. It was an interesting exercise. Anywhere I felt "self" I just let that go. Putting "Who am I" meant trying to let go of the place where the question came from. It led to some unusual states, but nothing dramatic. I did feel cool air on my skin again, at different times.

It was easy to sit for two hours. It seemed to pass fairly quickly. With 15 minutes left, I did try for the PL and NS. I didn't feel any gratitude trying to get to PL, and while everything became very dark and slow, there was no stoppage when trying for NS. Maybe I just can't reach these states. However, I still do not seem to be getting back to the no-objects state, which is where I seemed to be having more success before. I definitely hit spaciousness, and then what I call detached or non-centralized awareness, but I'm not reaching the no-object state.

A couple of the posters have pointed to something I found particularly useful. Have you noticed that all these different strings of thoughts just sort of pop up by themselves? Have you noticed that sometimes you have this kind of meditation or that kind of meditation and there's really nothing you can do about it? That is, you can *try* to be mindful or have a quiet focus, but sometimes you do and sometimes you don't. I used to use the pointer "it just happened by itself" with "it" being anything from a spate of thoughts to quiet to anger to frustration to boredom. There are times and places where pushing a student to apply more effort and try to make things happen is useful, but in your case you seem to be very stuck in that mode in an unproductive way and it might be helpful to try to extricate by surrendering a bit. Everything that arises does so through a web of conditions so infinitely complex "you" (the little guy in your head who wants to be in charge) really has no say in the matter. Trying to control everything sets up a huge pattern of grasping and aversion, which just makes it all more sticky. It might be worth experimenting with pointers like "everything I am experiencing is what is true right now, all of this, just as it is, is happening by itself. It's not me. It's not mine. I don't control it. It arises and passes away by itself." Disregard if it seems too off the wall, of course. Personally I never had a path moment come by me making it happen by concentrating really hard. It happened "by itself" - that is, unexpectedly. I tend to see practice as a way to set things up to make path moments more likely to happen when they are good and ready, not as a way to force them to happen.

Thank you Gira, I will do exactly as you suggest ... but I already put in my hour for today, so I'll have to try tomorrow.

Today, I had good focus. I sat with the kasina, and really focused on noting. I did notice a few new things. At least a dozen times I noticed a very subtle reset, like everything went dark for just the briefest of moments. These were followed by nothing, so I'm not trying to make anything out of them, it's just that I've been noticing them more and more lately. At first I thought it was the electricity in my house, but it isn't. I can't call them blips necessarily, but they are like the shutter on a camera. It might have happened 20 times, so I don't know. The coolness on my skin returned several times as well. But no bliss, nothing like that.

There were definitely vibrations, lots of them. All I did was note. I noted everything. My mind wandered a bit, and I noted that. Feeling arose and I noted those. I thought about D.O. and noted that. I had emotional pain and noted that. I was focused and on top of everything. I noted every camera shutter moment. I noted checking for bliss, and wanting it to be something.

The hour ripped by, and the timer going off surprised me.

After an unprecedented two days without sitting, I sat for three hours today.

The first hour was low focus, emotional pain, hard to note, mind wandering.

The second hour I remembered what Gira said and noticed how everything just happened by itself. I stopped trying to control, and just noticed what was there. The emotional pain subsided. I began noting just what was there. It was easy. I would note myself wanting to strive for something, or my dissatisfaction with something, and I would observe that even that was just happening by itself. I had another non-eventful blip, like the shutter of a camera, with no after effects.

The third hour I started with surrender and a kind of prayer. Energy moved up through my body and out of the crown of my head, like strong vibrations coursing through me, and then gratitude showered down for a while. After some time just sitting, I looked to the higher realms again and asked for help, and the same energy moved up through my body, though not so powerfully, and gratitude did not rain back down this time. Later I tried it again and got a slight rush up through my body, very diminished. It all made me feel much better about everything in my life.

I don't know how to classify this. It is more like prayer. It is more like surrendering and asking for help. I'm not sure if it has any place in meditation practice, but at least it made me feel better.

By the end of three hours I was just sitting, no thoughts, nothing. The end was the very opposite of the beginning, which was full of upset thinking.

Overall, sitting for three hours was pretty easy.

In contemplative prayer traditions the answer is the same: the purpose is not to make something happen (ie feel bliss, etc.), but simply to surrender to Reality as it already is (which we tend to be unable to see due to our clinging, controlling and resistance). As you noticed yourself, in that allowing things to be as they are you can also effectively note.

"In contemplative prayer traditions the answer is the same: the purpose is not to make something happen (ie feel bliss, etc.), but simply to surrender to Reality as it already is (which we tend to be unable to see due to our clinging, controlling and resistance). As you noticed yourself, in that allowing things to be as they are you can also effectively note. "

Yes, noting was actually more simple this way. No looking for the "right" signs or "important" stuff. I didn't try to focus my attention at all, I just let whatever come up. Even the third hour desire for deliverance, if that is what it was, came up naturally, and I surrendered to it. Well, at least the first time. The next two times I tried to bring it up again because I was curious and greedy for more.

1:10 minutes. As Gira suggested, I just focused on what was there. It was more relaxing for sure. I had a camera shutter experience, the later a series of what seemed like ten of them in a row, then later one more. Lots of fine vibrations throughout. I focused on exactly what was before me, and noted. I noted my ears ringing, the timer ticking, the sunlight and shadows moving on the wall, the sense of space, the vibrations, the pressure in the third eye area, the various changes with the kasina as it split, moved farther apart, then closer, disappeared one side then the next. I noted when I wanted something to happen, when I was frustrated, when I wanted to see the vibrations as signs, the anticipation that something might happen.

My object of meditation was just seeing what is, so I kept bringing my attention back to what was actually happening. If my mind wandered, that was just what was happening. If I judged it, that was happening. Nothing was better or worse. It was quite relaxing.

Nice!

Another hour yesterday, still focusing on exactly what is going on and frequently noting it. Noted the usual things, plus the swimming of the visual field, the fuzziness, the interference patterns. Letting it be, but noting the desire for progress when it arises and letting it be as well.

Another hour today. If nothing else, I do log the hours. This was perhaps the most boring sit of all time. The kasina split and barely moved. There was very little visual field disturbances. I noted the same few things. I focused hard on exactly what was before me. I noted the sameness, the boredom, the frustration. I noted the wish for something, anything, to happen. Nothing did. I noted that I felt the hour was a complete waste. My focus was mediocre. My mind wandered and I brought it back. I had some emotional pain, and just watched it. There were no vibrations to speak of, no camera shutter experiences, no bliss, gratitude, joy, or energy movements.

It was frikkin dull.

Decided to do another hour today and it was the most pathetic in months. Not even access concentration for most of the sit. No focus. I sat with what was, and that was just me sitting there looking at a kasina, no being able to focus, with my mind wandering off constantly. I guess today just isn't my day for meditation.

So basically if you have camera shutter, vibrations, bliss, gratitude, joy or tingly sensations, you are happy, and if you don't, you are sad?

Just sitting there looking at a kasina with a wandering mind can be quite as interesting as anything else. Why not? It's only a disappointment if you want to be experiencing something else. Which is no different than eating a peanut butter sandwich and being miserable because you wish it were a ham sandwich. The peanut butter sandwich has its own unique and fascinating texture, flavor, mouthfeel and smell... really just as interesting as a ham sandwich. Unless you cling to the idea that only a ham sandwich can possibly satisfy, and constantly compare the one to the other.

"So basically if you have camera shutter, vibrations, bliss, gratitude, joy or tingly sensations, you are happy, and if you don't, you are sad?

Just sitting there looking at a kasina with a wandering mind can be quite as interesting as anything else. Why not? It's only a disappointment if you want to be experiencing something else. Which is no different than eating a peanut butter sandwich and being miserable because you wish it were a ham sandwich. The peanut butter sandwich has its own unique and fascinating texture, flavor, mouthfeel and smell... really just as interesting as a ham sandwich. Unless you cling to the idea that only a ham sandwich can possibly satisfy, and constantly compare the one to the other."

Yes, I have suffering and I want it to end, and there is supposed to be a process that can accomplish this, a path, and this path has a map that might show me where I am in this process. So I suffer and practice, and when I think I am progressing in the process, moving along the path, reaching milestones on the map, I feel some hope. I feel happy. When nothing happens, and the path and map are not at all clear, I start to lose hope in the process. I feel depressed.

It would be great if I felt great all the time so it didn't matter, or if I had tremendous unquestioning faith, but the results are important to me, and the time I am sinking into this is very valuable, and I have doubts. The Buddha said to test things and verify the results, not to take things on faith, so I wonder if I am practicing properly when I don't see results.

Sure, I demand too much from every sit. I worry when I don't see progress, or seem to regress. It is the nature of my suffering. Sitting with no focus and my mind wandering does not seem to lead to an end of suffering -- I've done that for decades. So I guess I don't understand how looking at a kasina with a wandering mind can be leading to a better place.

The above all sounds like some very productive suffering. Your mind won't stand for it for long.

Perhaps look at desire?