John's practice

Thanks betawave. I really like the idea of noting, because it seems to put people on a course with a map that can be followed, and so it builds confidence. However, I'm wondering if I'm just one of those people who have a lot of trouble noting. As with my kasina work, I am more visual and after struggling with using breath, having something visual to focus on has been great. Noting is verbal, and it seems very difficult to me. I'm slow at it, and I can't come up with new descriptions. Half the time I'm not sure how I feel if I try detailed noting. For instance, I feel cold, and while the sensation might be unpleasant, I don't really think I have any aversion, or acceptance, or ... I just don't know. Maybe I do need examples.

What I did today was what I can do well: not think. It is actually a lot of work not to think. It takes tremendous vigilance. So I had one no-thinking and one detailed noting commuter sit. I did kasina for 40 minutes with no thinking, and it was tremendous. My focus was really hard, and the circle split into two circles, which moved wide apart and became more stable than usual, not collapsing back completely into one, but just going from the overlapping circles to spread apart circles. It was intense, and I could really feel a lot of energy. My awareness was very intense.

2 x 30 mindfulness on the commute. 1 hour kasina. Hard focus, best ever, putting all thoughts aside to really focus. Spent almost the whole hour with two circles, at times the right circle would disappear, then the left. Several times I had the strangest experience of seeing two circles and one circle at the same time. I don't really know how to explain it. I can't say that I've ever had that experience before. I was looking at two circles and just one circle ... at the same time. Surprisingly, my concentration was even much stronger than yesterday. Definitely the best concentration I have ever had on anything. It felt like I went into a lot of different kinds of spaces, and it definitely got stranger and brighter when I was super locked in. Again, I felt a lot of energy.

2 x 30 minutes Metta. The metta meditation doesn't feel like much at this point, but I've never tried doing it consistently before, so I'll give it time. Busy day, so only 30 minutes kasina. Great concentration, two circles most of the time, with the left one disappearing quite frequently and the right occasionally. Sometimes the focus is narrow and at other times, wide. Each space is feeling more distinct now. It seems to start off fairly normal, then narrow and deepen, then widen with a certain locked in feeling.

Most of the time the two circles are smoothly moving farther apart, and then closer, sometimes overlapping, then moving apart again. They aren't locking in a certain distance apart very often. Sometimes there is a white circle in the center, and when I focus on that they tend to move apart. When there is only one circle the same white image will emerge and overlay the circle, seeming to move towards me, and when I focus on that the circle will split in two. Sometimes I am curious so I try to exercise some control, but most of the time I just let it do whatever it likes.

"(p.s. to others.... is there a good practice thread for John to read that provides a good example of noting vocabulary?)

"

See Mumuwu's practice journal at
kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/40...27s+Practice+Journal

Check out entries 272, 316, and then the transcribed recordings at 460-466.

There's a lot of good stuff in this journal.

Thanks andymr, those examples helped, and I was encouraged to go back to noting, this time with more detail. So 2 x 30 min. noting. Commuting in a vanpool, so I can't note out loud. One hour kasina, circle split and stayed apart almost the entire hour. The usual disappearing, slowly moving farther apart then closer, but staying apart and stable more often. Pain right between the shoulder blades that I couldn't relax. At one point the split circles picked up some nearby dark trim, and I could see that one image had level horizontal trim beneath it while the other circle had tilted trim. Then I noticed the same with a nearby shadow, and then a spot on the wall, duplicated with each image. Now the distinct feeling of seeing two circles and one circle at the same time makes sense -- each side of my brain has it's own eye, and therefore it's own image, and sometimes they are working together, sometimes separately, sometimes a little of both.

Also it felt distinctly like it was sunny outside my window, though it is dark and gloomy. Also it seemed like sunlight was coming in through the window several times.

Great concentration. Usually there is no lingering effect when I am done, but this time the state continued for some time after I finished. I can still feel it a little. As always, pressure right in the middle of the forehead.

Read some more on kasina practice because I felt I was getting off track with all the double image stuff. I decided to make a yellow kasina and try looking at it for a stretch and then closing my eyes for the after-image. I learned that I can look for an hour and I still don't see a thing when I close my eyes. Nothing has imprinted on my retinas. It's just dark. My yellow kasina was up on my beige wall. The colors didn't seem that close, but the yellow was constantly disappearing, and left me looking at just the black border, like someone just drew a black circle on the wall. I had to constantly shift my focus a little to see the yellow clearly. This became irritating after a while, so I just let it go, and the rest of the time I looked at a circle with a wisp of yellow appearing here and there. When it started to split into two circles, I refocused it back to one. What I was interested in was seeing the blue counter-image, or seeing something when I closed my eyes -- neither happened. My concentration wasn't nearly as deep as my previous sits with my brown kasina.

Not sure how to continue. Most of what I have read says to develop the ability to "see" the kasina without the physical object ... eventually. I don't see anything when I close my eyes, even if I use a flame. I don't know if that means it is something I should work hard to develop, or if it means that I am completely wasting countless hours of my time on something that isn't going to happen. I did read one person who was like me, and never saw anything eyes closed, but did develop the ability to see his kasina with his eyes open, anytime, without the physical object. That sounds good enough to me.

Anyway, 2 x 30 noting. I can note all I want and it just feels like a lot of internal chatter. It isn't like my mind is jumping all over and needs to be drowned out by noting. I can be perfectly aware without noting.

I decided to stay with my original kasina, and just let it do whatever it will. Occasionally I still try to see something when I close my eyes, and now I do think I am starting to see an indistinct blur of something. Maybe it's nothing, or maybe it will develop in time.

So, I did another hour with my brown circle. It was pretty much the usual show, but I did notice what I think might be the first nimitta, or "training image" appearing a lot. It is a translucent white circle, it reminds me of the moon on a hazy night. If I see two images, I often see two moons. Sometimes it rises above and to the right of the right image, and sometimes right between the two images. I also noticed something odd -- a violet haze, at one point looking like plasma, to the upper right of my kasina. Don't know what that's about. It went away after a while.

My focus was good, but not as great as before, though at one point it did get pretty intense and I felt like ... I dunno, like something was happening.

I did another 45 minutes kasina yesterday, and then another hour today. Today there wasn't very much going on visually, and my mind wandered a lot instead of the usual great focus. The translucent white image did appear regularly, and occasionally the kasina would disappear for a few seconds, but not much else. Ho hum.

After the hour of kasina I decided to note out loud for 30 minutes. It didn't seem so different from silently noting. It went like this:

breath in
ears ringing
breathe out
foot tingling
nose itch
breath in
furnace sound
breath out
ears ringing
hands warm
pressure in forehead
breath in
breath out
noticing tape holding up kasina
noticing diagnal shadow on kasina
noticing my hair hanging down
thinking about getting a haircut
wondering if haircut place is closed
wondering what time it is
wanting to look at time
breath in
breath out
ears ringing
nose itch
etc ...

2 x 30 on the commute, only 30 minutes kasina because my Tuesdays are usually booked solid. Did about 5 minutes of out loud noting, but really I was exhausted so it just seemed to be going through the motions. Kasina wasn't very active, just the usual stuff, disappearing, splitting, translucent white image arising, and so on.

2 x 30 commute, not sure what to settle on, there's metta, noting, just watching ... I usually stick to noting. 1 hour kasina. I decided to put all my effort into focusing on the kasina as hard as I can, because I seem to be losing my focus in the last few sits. It worked somewhat, but I'm still nowhere near the focus I had.

The kasina is always splitting into two images. When I focus, the white circular image emerges from the brown kasina and seems to come towards me, which makes my eyes cross, which makes the kasina split into two images. I can focus on the right or left image, and that image will seem to move either further apart or towards my eye. It used to be interesting, but now it seems boring and counter productive. But that's what happens when I focus on the kasina, and that was my instruction: to keep looking.

Just looked at the kasina, but my mind wandered into thinking about how I am not the body for some reason. It was pretty insistent on examining this. So I saw that I am not the body, and not the self, and that what I am is the emptiness that allows all these things to arise. After it was done, I went back to focusing on the kasina, which did pretty much nothing. I felt sleep and it was hard to focus. It became so tedious that after 45 minutes I switched to out loud noting. Still sleepy, and just not into it. Feels like I'm getting nothing out of it. Just a few days ago I had mega-concentration, and now I am bored and can't stay awake. I never know what to make of these things. It doesn't feel like progress, but I guess feeling this way is normal, so I'll carry on.

"It doesn't feel like progress, but I guess feeling this way is normal, so I'll carry on."

Right.

By the way, good instinct to use noting to help you through the spots that are tedious, boreing, sleepy, etc.

One hour, trying to do kasina, and then giving up and noting. Mind wandering, feeling down, depressed, anxious. Can't focus very well. Nothing much going on with the kasina. Noting was difficult, just going from redundant noting of sounds, itches, ears ringing, or feeling down, depressed, anxious and sad. Constantly wanting to check the clock, wishing it were over.

Sits like that are miserable, but they don't last. While you're going through it you think this is all meditation is or will ever be, but it keeps changing all the time. Also, as we progress on the path, our ability to do concentration practice may wax and wane at different points, and it feels as if we're regressing, even though we're not. So hang in there. It does get better.

Thanks JL, I needed a little boost. So I sat for an hour again, and this time I just decided to gaze at my kasina but note everything as fast I could. I didn't bother noting out loud, or even saying words silently, I just noted every single thing in my awareness as simultaneously as possible. Maybe this isn't the way to do it, but it seemed to work for me. While noting everything, I realized that before I was allowing some narration to go on outside of noting. I started noting that as well. Then, I noticed a much fainter narrative buzzing away on the edge of awareness, I couldn't even really follow it exactly, but I started noting that as well. My kasina did it's usual kasina things, and I noted those as well. Nothing is outside of noting! I noted everything, every thought, sensation, sound, being tired, wanting to quit, etc... After a while it was almost like there was a flickering of some kind. My kasina was overlaid in a violet haze for a few seconds.

Noting my mind wandering several times, I noticed a theme to the daydreams, and instead of judging them "bad" I took them apart and realized that these daydreams were trying to tell me something. I'm going to listen to my daydreams and run an experiment to see if they are more than wandering thoughts.

After a three day holiday break, I came back hopeful that my practice would be better. Instead, it's worse. Today I sat for a half hour kasina, and my mind was all over the place, getting completely lost in big daydreams. I tried counting, noting -- nothing worked in the least. I decided to stop and come back later. So then I come back for another hour, determined to sit it out no matter what. My mind wandered into all kinds of stories, I had zero focus, and it was just grueling. I must have checked the clock 10 times in desperation for it to be over. My mind was in full revolt. I was nodding off despite not being the least bit sleepy. My mind was trying to shut down.

The kasina did little to nothing. I had no focus.

All I can say it that I didn't quit. I sat out the hour.

Another hour. Not as horrible as yesterday. I spent about half on the kasina and then the last half noting out loud while still looking at the kasina, and noting looking at the kasina. The noting became rather redundant, but then some thoughts stirred up and I got to note those. All kinds of weird random stuff can come up, for no apparent reason. I noted. My focus was better. Still not good, but better. Far, far, from where it was last week. There is no altered state feeling or after effect when I'm done. The kasina didn't do much, but it does seem as though the translucent white overlay is there more often, most of the time actually.

Believe it or not, sounds good! Full revolt and sleeply/slippery mind is a great thing to see in practice. It's where the real work is done -- and not necessarily through effort, but by keeping at gently noting it. The goal is to let it be, but still note. Sometimes people will be too heavy handed and try to crush whatever mind state they don't like with heavy noting, breath counting, etc., as if they are trying to drown out the "bad" states. Actually you want to get experience being aware within mind states that normally control us.

Thanks for the support, betawave, I desperately need it. I am being bombarded by depression, hopelessness, and despair almost constantly right now and I feel exhausted. Fortunately all things are impermanent, including this.

No worries. What goes for non-meditators goes double for meditators: be good to yourself, take care for yourself. Practice when you can practice with a good heart, don't burn out. Don't slack off either, but don't burn out. And when it doubt, get some fresh air and do something fun.

I decided to spend an hour noting out loud while looking at my kasina. It went like this:

Looking at kasina, noticing tape, noticing diagonal line, noticing red spot and blue spot on wall, discoloration in paint, suits hanging nearby, shadows from suits, trim, paneling, electrical outlet, looking at kasina, feet on floor, pressure on back from chair, forearms on arm rests, looking at kasina, hearing furnace blower, hearing car outside, wondering if wife is home, thinking about what to make for dinner, wondering if daughter is with her, looking at kasina, noticing spots again, suits, shadows, trim, paneling, electrical outlet, feeling sleepy, feeling very sleepy, rocking forward to try and stay awake, looking at kasina, noticing tape and diagonal line, hearing the cat move around, wondering when my wife will be home, listening, feeling sad, wanting to stop, wanting to look at the time, noticing my hair, nodding off and jerking head back up, very sleepy, rocking to stay awake, trying hard to focus eyes, mouth getting dry, looking at kasina, noticing tape, line, spots, suits, shadows, trim, paneling, electrical outlet, wondering how long it has been, hearing car go by, wondering if it is my wife coming home, if my daughter is with her, what to make for dinner, feeling sleepy, thinking that this isn't working, thinking that I am getting nothing out of this, thinking I am doing it wrong, hearing furnace blower ... (and on and on for an hour).

I noted out loud, as fast as I could. It seemed very redundant and I wondered if I shouldn't just skip a lot of the repetitive visual stuff. It obviously isn't furthering my concentration practice, so maybe I should do it eyes closed. I just don't know what to do. Still, better than yesterday I guess.

"I just don't know what to do. "

Seems like this is a technique question? How would you describe what you are intending to practice?

(It seems like you have transitioned from pure kasina practice to a combination kasina with a lot of noting, is that true or has it always been that way?)

Or is this is a frustation/burn out question? i.e., on and on for an hour about wanting to stop?

Normally (but not this week) I have a commute, so as a passenger I can do whatever insight or metta practice I want, twice a day, for 30 minutes. At home, I decided to do kasina practice for about an hour a day, to help with my concentration, which is often poor. Also, I thought kasina practice would be a refuge of sorts, because I so often experience a lot of anxiety, depression, etc.

Unfortunately, despite my concentration being excellent, when the bad stuff came it just wiped out my concentration too. It used to be so constantly bad that all my efforts at meditation failed. I couldn't even get started. My mind never settled down. There were never any peaceful feelings or pleasant states. The only thing I could do were Zen Koans, because it was just hammering away at the same question. Now that I am older my brain seems to have calmed down a lot, so I am trying again. I have had a lot of equanimity over the past years, but the bad stuff keeps coming back, ruining my life and relationships.

So, what I am doing is trying to put an end to what certainly seems to be Dark Night cycling, over and over. To end or limit it, or to make it less severe. If stream entry is what is necessary, then I have to do whatever is necessary to get there.

Pretty simple. I am tired of suffering. I will take the end of it by any means, AF, jhanas, a pill, insight, pyramid power ... I just don't care. Any method that works. Whatever works with the most certainty, the most quickly, and the most thoroughly. I don't need perfection, enlightenment, magical powers, or anything special.

So if the Buddha or anyone else says, "Do this, and you will get that result" ... well here am I, willing to try anything, looking for the lessening of suffering.

Did an hour of fast noting, just silently noting everything at once. When sensations persisted, I really examined them carefully, and noticed some patterns of thought I had never noticed before. I still looked at my kasina, of course, for what it's worth, but noting silently I didn't have to spend all my time on visual stuff, which I can see and note all at once. Over time, I became more and more sensitive to things, like feeling my shirt against every inch of my skin. I still had music playing in my head, but I didn't try to stop it, I just examined it, tried to figure out where it was coming from. It just seems to come from nowhere, like most of the odd thoughts that just popped into my awareness, some things from decades ago, not important things, just regular events.

Another hour, mostly fast noting, sometimes just trying to really focus on the kasina. My mind wandered quite a bit, but then I would notice and note it. Music running through my mind a lot, noted that. Felt a lot of pain and sadness in my heart area, noted that. Picked up on more thought patterns, saw how I am attached to certain things being other than they are, and so I am creating my own suffering by resisting what is. Didn't try to resist, suppress, or change any thoughts, just noted and looked at my kasina, and noted some more. Noted a lot of emotional pain. Noted attachments, sad future projections, and my unhappy thoughts generating misery. The time seemed to go by pretty fast. I remembered to examine whatever came up with interest, and just note it, and watch it all come and go.