John's practice

"It might help to not assume you know where you are.

Why no vibes? Perhaps you aren't crossing the A&P.

The physical symptoms you describe in your last post sound far more 3 characteristics-ish even though you threw the term "desire for deliverance" in the mix."

It's really not me assuming, it is the best guess of my meditation instructor, Ron Crouch, and also what I have heard from many other experienced yogis who are familiar with my practice and past experiences. It seems like the advice is pretty much the same no matter what. Sit. Note.

"I have never done kasina practice but I do feel like EQ is all about concentration, at least for me it was (some will argue differently). But I would always start with noting and it seems as though the noting would get slower and uncessesary as the vibrations ramped up. As soon as the vibrations were strong enough in a certain area (usually 3rd eye, crown, or hands) I would move my focus to that as doing concentration practice, sometime I would automatically shift to 2nd gear, like a watcher was watching these vibrations from a distance. Obviously my periphary would still catch vibrations all over, but my main focus was the certain area where the strong vibrations were concentrated.

Now remember, like I said in my previous post about right effort. If I focused too hard on that spot, the vibrations would almost disperse and I would downshift into lower EQ. So just keep that in mind."

Can you describe for me, in exact detail, how you experience vibration? I do sometimes get what I would call a flickering of all or part of my visual field, but even more often there is a swimming effect, which I wouldn't exactly describe as vibration, but more as my entire visual field just sort of swimming, maybe shimmering is a better word, more fluid than flickering.

Anyway, I did an 1:10 switching from kasina to eyes-closed noting. Now I am sure that eyes-closed is just far inferior to looking at the kasina, from my amateur perspective. Looking at the kasina I feel space, expansion, detachment, and I see at least edge vibrations on the kasina. Noting with my eyes closed I just see the after image of the kasina for a while, then mostly brown, occasionally indistinct blobs of orange or purple. The feeling of space is mostly gone. There isn't much to note. I don't experience any vibrations at all, or notice anything of interest. The only purpose it seems to serve is that when I finally open my eyes again, the kasina is even more intense.

Vibrations in high EQ to me feel like tingling. That's even the word I use to note them. However, it doesn't really 'feel' like anything that I can describe really well and I am sure it is different for different people. It's more of a 'feeling' that you can see sensations arising and passing very rapidly. Like for example if I feel Pressure in my 3rd eye area I can literally feel it tingling rapidly. If I hear a sound, i can actually sense it as tingling in my body. Kinda hard to explain.

In low EQ. Especially when it first arose. There was literally nothing. Like nothing to note. I got worried I was backsliding because all of a sudden I was like "where did everything go?"

Sounds like you're doing good. I'm not really sure if there's anything i can recommend. Include everything in awareness, note everything. What are the sensations that imply center to awareness. Is there a place where you seem to be noting from? What sensations imply such a location for the noting mind?

Thanks for the feedback, it really does help. Nothing to note is how I feel most of the time. It feels contrived when I go scanning for something, like some insignificant itch. Today I did an hour and noted my breath, my ears ringing, my fingers resting on my thighs, my feet tingling. I can search in vain for a feeling or emotion. Sometimes thoughts drift in, what to make for dinner, sending in my taxes, but not too much. I have noted "nothing" a lot. I also note "space" a lot, because I'm aware of the spaciousness.

It seems like a lot of experienced people feel I am doing well. It sure doesn't feel like it to me, but I'll trust those with more experience.

Another hour today. Focused on the fizzing at the edges of the kasina, then closed my eyes. Saw the green after image for a while, then a big purple blob, then it was all just dull brown. Some emotional stuff did come up, but it was directly related to ruminating over some real-life challenges. I noted it all. Mostly it was just dull. I tried to get a sense for anything that could be a vibration. I didn't sense anything. It is all very boring and discouraging. I noted that as well. I noted all of my dissatisfaction, doubt, fear, anger, impatience ... that took about 30 seconds, and then I was back to nothing.

It used to be that when I quit a session, it took me a while to adjust back. I used to be in an altered state, and the kasina would split and the two images spread very far apart, even onto another wall to the side. I think it was just my eyes crossing that much that did something to my vision for a while, so it would take some time to snap back. Now all that doesn't happen. I even tried to make the images spread out farther, but they wouldn't.

What it all means, I haven't a clue.

I did another hour yesterday after I posted, then I did another hour today. Villum gave me a few things to try, mentioning that the lips are an area where vibrations are easily felt. I focused on my kasina until I saw the edges start to bubble, then closed my eyes and focused on where my lips touch. It wasn't hard to feel the vibrations, and this led to vibrations in the brown visual field I see with my eyes closed. It kept going, subtle sometimes, and occasionally more pronounced. When this died down I did some fast noting of everything in my awareness. The hour went by quickly. There was very little emotion or feeling to note, except towards the end when I am always disappointed and frustrated that again not much happened. My disappointment was less this time, because at least I noticed some vibration. Ron said there was nothing wrong with making effort to cultivate these vibrations, and nothing wrong with having the desire to progress. So that is what I am doing. I am cultivating the vibrations.

"I did another hour yesterday after I posted, then I did another hour today. Villum gave me a few things to try, mentioning that the lips are an area where vibrations are easily felt. I focused on my kasina until I saw the edges start to bubble, then closed my eyes and focused on where my lips touch. It wasn't hard to feel the vibrations, and this led to vibrations in the brown visual field I see with my eyes closed. It kept going, subtle sometimes, and occasionally more pronounced. When this died down I did some fast noting of everything in my awareness. The hour went by quickly. There was very little emotion or feeling to note, except towards the end when I am always disappointed and frustrated that again not much happened. My disappointment was less this time, because at least I noticed some vibration. Ron said there was nothing wrong with making effort to cultivate these vibrations, and nothing wrong with having the desire to progress. So that is what I am doing. I am cultivating the vibrations."

Did Villum happen to mention from whom he learned this tip regarding vibrations in the lips?

Don't remember. I *think* i was doing it before i joined kfd, and i *think* i figured it out by myself. I might have read about it somewhere.

Had time for 30 minutes. Focused on kasina until edges started moving, then went to eyes closed. Focused on my lips touching, noted some mild vibration, and some in the visual field as well. Nothing came up. No itches, no strong emotions, not even much frustration or disappointment when yet another session went by with nothing happening. It isn't bad. It isn't intolerable or even unpleasant. It isn't even boring, really. It's just nothing. The usual. No kriyas, nothing new in the visual field, nothing new to note, just my ears ringing as always, my breath, and the occasional stray thought, practice conversation, or fantasy. No feeling of anything building, or anything slipping away. I ask myself, "Who am I?" ... and the answer is nothing. The question has no meaning. Does that mean I'm free of self? Not at all. I'm caught up in it most of the day. But when I put the question, the answer is nothing. The question is nothing. There is no questioner separate from the question. There is no separate thing that can answer: there is just the answer, nothing. The question itself doesn't get a rise at all. It has no hook. Then a few minutes later I'm having a nice fantasy conversation about what I should have said to so-and-so for insulting me like that! There is a big gap between my intellectual understanding of things and my typical ego-driven thinking.

Two more hours. Starting with the kasina, moving on to noting. Tried a few things like HAIETMOBA, fast noting, and noting out loud.

Nothing new except for a low, vibrating hum that I never noticed before. I can still hear it now that I've noticed it. I am at ease, and the time passes quickly. Nothing comes up, just the occasional planning, remembrance, or fantasy. Even the kasina, when I decide to open my eyes and refocus on it for a while, is pretty tame. Everything is kind of dull and boring. I'm getting used to it.

45 minutes. Worthless. Distracted. The whole time ruminating over some very upsetting stuff from my personal life. Nothing I could do about it, too upset. Tried noting out loud, but couldn't.

Villum sent me this link on equanimity dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussio...oards/message/100594 ... so that inspired me to sit another hour despite my unhappy state. It was better, but still nothing. I mean nothing as in practically nothing coming up, nothing much to note, nothing. Maybe it isn't even equanimity. It certainly isn't blissful. At best it might be pleasant. Most of the time it is nothing. It is neutral. What else can I do but sit? I try this and that. This time I did a little Shinzen "Do Nothing" and some compassion meditation as well. Why not. I noted out loud. I did some fast noting.

Equanimity does feel like nothing sometimes and your mind's tendency is to want to chatter away, so you get bored and that leads to getting carried away in thoughts sometimes too. At least for me it did. It can be pleasant, but the usually feeling tone is pretty darn neutral to most anything that comes up.

Despite saying "nothing" comes up most of the time, your reports carry a tone of frustration. Which means you can note the sensations that make up someone wishing something would happen, at least, no? There's hardly ever "nothing" - at a minimum there's your chest going up and down as you breath, the pressure of your behind on the cushion, the questing feeling in your mind as your attention twirls around looking for something to note, the wishing some fancy exciting thing would happen, etc.

"Despite saying "nothing" comes up most of the time, your reports carry a tone of frustration. Which means you can note the sensations that make up someone wishing something would happen, at least, no? There's hardly ever "nothing" - at a minimum there's your chest going up and down as you breath, the pressure of your behind on the cushion, the questing feeling in your mind as your attention twirls around looking for something to note, the wishing some fancy exciting thing would happen, etc."

Good point, while I was awake last night (couldn't sleep) I thought about what I said and I was going to add, that at first it feel like nothing, but you need to look closely at what you are 'missing.' I bet all of it is still there, but since you have a more neutral feeling-tone about it, its easy to miss it all.

Exactly. Meditation doesn't need to have fireworks to be relevant and important. Sometimes it's very subtle and quiet. Progress is not actually linked to the fireworks, we just tend to notice them easily and get excited about it. Appreciating quiet, subtle meditations is something I've dealt with myself.

Thanks for the responses. I don't feel the frustration until I sense that my hour is almost up, and of course after the sit. I really am just ridiculously impatient, I know. I think part of my impatience comes from doubt. I haven't had that "Wow, this stuff is real, this really works!" moment. Meditation has never bought me anywhere near the PCE level. Those happened spontaneously. I was impressed to have noticed that the stages of the cycle really do go in order, but I haven't noticed the changing jhanas. I just seem to go real fast into a lot of space, then a feeling of detachment. I used to be able to note the stages, fear, misery, disgust, but now I seem to go right to neutral. I suppose I should be happy it isn't more DN.

Anyway, thanks for commenting, it helps me to stop worrying and sit quietly.

"I just seem to go real fast into a lot of space, then a feeling of detachment. I used to be able to note the stages, fear, misery, disgust, but now I seem to go right to neutral. I suppose I should be happy it isn't more DN.
"

For me, it was easier to spot the stages go by when I started.. The longer I sat and the further I progressed, the more quickly the earlier stages would come and go. At some point, I would go up to my cutting edge pretty rapidly, and it became hard to notice individual stages. A&P would typically be most obvious as a quick body rush. Other stuff wasn't so clear.

How would it affect your practice if you were noticing passage through those earlier stages? What would you do differently?

"How would it affect your practice if you were noticing passage through those earlier stages? What would you do differently?


"

If I noticed the passage through earlier stages, I would be more certain where I am "on the map" so to speak, and then I would be more confident that I am on the right track and making progress. Instead, since I don't notice even an A&P rush, and since I haven't really noticed any classic A&P events anyway, I wonder if I have actually made any progress at all. It seems like other meditators have these clear stages, and distinct jhanas, and my practice is just confusing and uncertain. I don't experience any lights, blipping, bliss, rapture or much of anything at all. It's more like I'm just sitting there with expanded and detached awareness. I have to look very hard to find anything "vibrating" in some way.

What I would do differently is stop having doubt and wondering all the time, and just patiently plod along.

Anyway, I had time for 40 minutes yesterday. I started with the kasina and moved on to metta for the first half, then finished with noting. The metta made it more pleasant, but overall it was about the same as ever. I tried to focus on stages and jhanas, and certainly things do change during my meditation ... but I can't map these changes to things like infinite space, infinite consciousness, etc. My experience is more of a lot of space, and then detached awareness, and then a sense of disappearing in a way.

You are being too hard on yourself. From what it sounds like you are in Lower EQ and you know what? It's boring. I think a lot of people (including myself) feel like you do at this stage. I hardly noticed any nanas once I was constantly in EQ, just shot right up to calm nothingness. It is happening again now. There will most likely be no fireworks or amazing things at this point. It will not be what you expect, so drop the expectations and just be. Let go. Easy to say, but very hard to do. I feel like those last stages there is always something that someone has to learn in order for the pop to happen and you don't necessarily know what that is until you see it. You can't 'try' to see it though. It will be become very clear once you finally give in. I hope that helps.

Thanks for the advice. I had time for 45 minutes with the kasina. My focus was really solid. Not a lot of wandering thoughts. I was very fatigued, so I was surprised that the time went quickly. I guess I'll just settle in for more of the same from now on. It isn't so bad, really, just boring. I'm bored with even posting about it. Maybe I'll stop posting until something new happens.

Sounds like you are right on track. Don't lose momentum, keep sitting every day, and if you feel like posting do it for you, not us It is your journal after all.

John - generally speaking, I'm in a very similar position. Aside from some recent intense experiences on retreat, I haven't noticed distinct nyanas since last autumn. I hear you on the dullness, the doubt and the wish for something to happen!

OK, I'll keep posting for me, because this is how I log my time and I'll be less likely to skip sessions.

Thanks for the info, Andy. What I read led me to believe that I would be done soon, but you have been waiting much longer than I have. That's good to know. I guess things moved so steadily before that I thought this would just be another step, another week or two. But apparently it's a common place to be stuck. It could certainly be a lot worse, like the endless DN cycles.

I did an hour with the kasina. It was about the same. My focus was very good. Nothing unusual happened, except for feeling even more detachment than usual.

1 hour kasina. Very strong focus, lots of space. Nothing new.