Laurel's Practice II

Laurel, give this a read. Before starting a new path you will be going through review phases. Eventually you'll find yourself at the start of a new path where things solidify and you'll need to make effort again to progress up and through that path until you wind up in a fruition phase followed by more review.

Have a look here: kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/The+...ight+%28Part+Four%29

and here:
kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/The+...d+and+the+Jhanic+Arc

Metta!

"Thanks, mu. This I have to admit has been a source of confusion for me: I thought what would happen is I'd start another path and climb through the nanas the way I did before, one by one. I couldn't imagine that the dukkhas are my edge yet. But what's happening instead is this cycling you talk about. I get tingling and little lights flashing, for example, or calm, or misery. I had nausea and disgust as well yesterday; desire of deliverance also put in an appearance. So what does it mean to be on second path? how can I tell where I am? Is what goes on in daily life different from the place one is at in meditation? "

I think that is the problem with looking at the stages of insight after SE. Things get more muddled as you go on, especially after 2nd path so I hear. Cycles and cycles. Thats why you don't see a well defined map lined out pretty much anywhere after 1st path. It just isnt as clearly linear and defineable as 1st path. You still cycle, but to me, its more confusing to figure out exactly where you are.

What's confusing?

After 2nd path you continue to progress through insight cycles in the same way. During review phase B if you are attaining to jhanas above the 8th, or you attain Nirodha Samapatti, you have attained 3rd path.

Laurel just completed first path, so she'll be able to get relatively clear as to where she is with a little bit of reading about the review phases.

Also second path is just as clear and linear as first.

Okay, so I'm still in review. Got it! That is what has been confusing both me and Russell, trying to figure out when we're done with review (we're both a couple of newborn stream enterers). Thanks again.

Yes - for some further clarification, the cycles after 2nd path that are confusing are the developmental ones. During the first two paths, you could complete 1 developmental phase, get the fruition of that path and then enter review. During the work up to third path and 4th path you can complete several developmental phases without actually attaining the criteria for that path.

"A technical note: Naomi describes an interesting and not uncommon situation with regard to jhanas. She was regularly accessing 8 jhanas before the retreat, then found that suddenly she had only four. This happens when a yogi finishes up what I call "review phase B," in which each sitting involves moving up and down through every jhana previously attained, beginning with the first, and begins a new "developmental phase," where the yogi has to painstaking work her way up through the ñanas again. This culminates in fruition, which opens up some new territory or stabilizes some old territory. In this case, a new path and two new jhanas appeared. "Review phase A" happens just after completing a new Progress of Insight and looks like this: rising up through the ñanas, the yogi gets to the 11th ñana, experiences fruition, then finds herself back in the 4th ñana. The cycle during this phase is (using ñana numbers) 4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,4,5,6, etc. The three patterns of 1) developmental, 2) review A, and 3) review B cover most of what happens during Progress of Insight meditation. Pre-1st Path yogis know only the developmental phase; they are still working their way up toward the first fruition. They are always moving up and down between the 1st ñana and the highest ñana they have attained to date."

"What's confusing?

After 2nd path you continue to progress through insight cycles in the same way. During review phase B if you are attaining to jhanas above the 8th, or you attain Nirodha Samapatti, you have attained 3rd path.

Laurel just completed first path, so she'll be able to get relatively clear as to where she is with a little bit of reading about the review phases.

Also second path is just as clear and linear as first."

To me, it was very clear when I was in Review and then when things became solid again. It's just that things seem to have progressed so quickly after that, that I have almost confused myself.

"Most people see a noticeable change in baseline experience of self and world after 2nd Path along with changes in their practice, most notably an acceleration of the insight cycles; once you leave the review phase of 2nd Path, you start going through complete Progress of Insight cycles every few weeks or days. This is Bill Hamilton's "12th Path" phenomenon. If you could get a new Path with every insight cycle after 2nd just as you did with the first two, you'd be at "12th Path" and beyond in no time (and we know there are only 4 Paths). But after 2nd Path, it's different; it takes many insight cycles and a significant deepening of practice to get to 3rd Path."
- Kenneth Folk

"To me, it was very clear when I was in Review and then when things became solid again. It's just that things seem to have progressed so quickly after that, that I have almost confused myself."

Are you sure you didn't drop back into review? Did you go through review phase B?

Not sure. Do you mean drop back into 1st path review or start 2nd path review?

I thought I had a fruition several days ago, but I don't feel like it was 2nd path. i.e. - my sits havent changed much. I don't feel like I start at A&P like after 1st path and no noticeable change in baseline except maybe I feel more dukkha (anxiety, nausea) lately off-cushion like I am cycling like crazy. Sorry to hijack your thread Laurel, we can move this to my thread if needed

Yes - best to assume you are perhaps still in first path review (especially if you had a fruition but aren't now going through review phase a). When all the cycling completely stops and you are going up and down from a cutting edge, then consider it 2nd path stuff.

Thanks, guys, and I am happy to have "my" thread highjacked. I am self-diagnosing as review a. Don't think I've hit b yet. Don't know what the deal is with my sits, but I can't go up and down the jhanic arc, that much is pretty clear. I also don't know what a fruition is like--from what I gather, people can have them without understanding or identifying them clearly. My guess is that I had them a lot when I first got SE, and was bubbling and tingling every time I sat.

I still would like to know what my 8 days of having no self was all about. The first reading Jayson linked mentioned that this is something that can happen to yogis at various stages, so I'm guessing that's what it was. What's weird about that is I can't identify how and when "I" came back; there just was a point when I noticed I was back, and then I lost myself again for about an hour and came back. What's also weird (while we're on the subject of weird) is that I can't really access that experience in memory any more; I know it happened, but I don't have a keen memory of what it was really like. But I have come to the conclusion that it's best not to regard that experience with either attachment (trying to get it back again) or aversion.

Right after a path there's usually a honeymoon period where things feel particularly different - that's likely what you were experiencing.

Regarding fruitions, you'll want to look for the pattern of ascending from the A&P into a cooled out dissolution phase followed by a nasty dukkha nana phase, an equanimity phase and then a sudden dropping back to the A&P level.

When you sit, what tends to occur? Would you be able to recognize jhanas if they began presenting themselves or would you simply find yourself wondering why things are getting uncomfortable / flickery / etc?

I haven't been sitting that much, so what I've recorded here is what's been happening. When I say I can't access jhana, I mean I can't through the usual means of samatha practice. I do get to a state of absorption through noting, or through open awareness. But in the past few days there's been a lot of wooziness too. I probably wouldn't be able to recognize jhanas, certainly not tell one from another, even though I've read the descriptions. I find myself wondering why they get flickery. My experience with this entire endeavor is that I can't really recognize anything just based on descriptions until I've experienced it clearly for myself and had someone say, "that's what it is."

Can you resonate/follow along with this (or at least some of it)?



Noting will actually bring you into/through jhanas (as will open awareness) if you are in review phase B.

These two videos may also be of interest/helpful (all three are of Kenneth)

"My experience with this entire endeavor is that I can't really recognize anything just based on descriptions until I've experienced it clearly for myself and had someone say, "that's what it is." -- Laurel

Yes, that sounds very familiar. That and that much of what gets talked about here is more subtle, harder to tune into, than you might think from reading a lot of the comments. At first the jhanas appeared to me as light headed-ness, and a "funky" kind of sensation in my head. I had to sit with them for some time, play, explore, experiment, before they were all that distinguishable, one from the other. I had been looking for some kind of gross and lasered-in concentration thingie. Surprised, I was, to find them to also be very subtle, wispy, sometimes vague, states.

Had a short but extremely pleasant metta session yesterday, almost immediately flooded with pleasure and good feelings, not intense but effortless.

Difficult noting session this morning, about 30 mins., lots of physical pain. Draggy, unpleasant. Began focusing on the breath, then noted sounds, particularly ears ringing, moved to body sensations like aching, burning in the midsection (anxiety), sense of solidity in the buttocks on the cushion, coolness around the ankles, then aches and pains and stiffness in wrist, neck, back. Checking in on the burning sensation in the midriff off and on; interspersed with planning thoughts, anticipatory thoughts, sensations of hunger mingling with the fear. Some drifting off. Then eventually mild kriyas started up in the form of shaking back and forth, came and went. Some dreamlike imagery, then a really difficult resurgence of pain. Timer went off. Felt sleepy and stiff afterward.

I talked with Ron yesterday; told him metta was easy, but the viapassana was tough. He recommended 15 minutes of metta to lead into a half-hour noting session. I have been having lots of problems reestablishing my practice since SE because I'm starting all over again at the beginning. It's time to use a little old-fashioned willpower to get going again, then the practice will take care of itself.

Last evening: 15 mins., began with metta and felt more comfortable just doing jhana. Felt the jhana factors quite easily, in fact, was happy and blissful and let myself enjoy it. Then the timer went off, I reset it for 30 mins., and everything changed. It was a lot like Saturday's sit in that there was tons of physical pain, something I don't remember experiencing so much with first path. I wasn't pushing to sit crosslegged, either; I was on a nice comfortable couch with my back supported. But pains would suddenly spring up in odd places: my shin, my hip, my back, my arm, whatever. I then felt a more protracted discomfort in the lower back that made me want to squirm around on the cushion. A few itches put in an appearance. I gave up and scratched at least twice, they were so miserable. It sounds like 3C's, but I can't be sure. I had a more neutral and boring few minutes before all this nastiness started, so it's possible.

There also were some more kriyas, sometimes triggered by the physical discomfort. A couple of times I wanted to stop the session early, but I didn't let myself do that. I got sleepiness once or twice briefly. When the timer finally went off I was glad.

Another session last evening, remarkably similar to the one the night before. The 15 minutes of metta and samatha beforehand was lovely, then the noting session was rather brutal. There was more sleepiness this time; I was tempted to attribute it to being tired, but then remembered that I had no such problem during the 15 minute session beforehand. There were also more itches, less actual pain. The itches did not shimmer the way I remember them doing months ago, but I didn't expect them to. They felt solid. They tended to multiply up the left side of the face. I had some twitches and then a little shaking, which was uncomfortable. Once more I wanted the session to end but stuck with it. Extreme sleepiness came and went throughout.

Good work sticking with it. Sounds lke nasty 3C's stuff to me.

Thanks for the encouragement. Last night was a little different from the past two nights. I still had a good concentration session for 15 minutes and then when I switched to noting I got slammed with the itches almost immediately. This time they did shimmer, a lot. They moved around a lot as well, eventually covering the entire face. A random itch would hit me somewhere else briefly, maybe on the neck or in the ear, but otherwise it was the face. They started out as several large, discrete itches, but eventually it felt like the entire face was flaming with smaller pinpricks. For awhile I'd alternate between these itches and a kind of waking dream state, where my mind would start wandering to odd scenarios (can't even remember what they were), and I'd go with it for awhile until I'd note "dreaming" and it would stop. It didn't feel quite the same as sleepiness, just thoughts that would get more and more random until I caught up with it.

There was also very mild shaking, sometimes prompted by an especially intense new itch. My noting was thrown off a bit by all this stuff; frequently I'd just watch everything without trying to attach a label to it. I noted a lot of mapping thoughts, then sometimes would get distracted and noted planning thoughts and anticipatory thoughts. Deeper into the sit I began a pattern of alternating between the gentle shaking and extremely subtle, rapid vibrations. I recalled something similar last summer when I was edging into A&P territory, then noted mapping thought again. I also noted comparing thought because I started taking inventory of sensations and comparing them to what happened last summer (no painful contraction up the back of the neck and head, for instance).

There were a few very brief and subtle experiences of lights closer to the end, but otherwise the visual field was swirling with black or dark grey cloudlike stuff.

Two more things: I checked over and over again for my usual sensation of anxiety in the belly and it wasn't there. Noted "surprise." It just plain wasn't there. Also noted "pleased." This morning I woke up with it briefly, but it seems gone now. Could be any number of reasons why it's gone so I won't even try to nail it down, but it deserves mention. I have read about the phenomenon of an adrenalin drop on awakening.

The other thing is that the session seemed to go on for a long time, although it was only 30 minutes. That's been typical lately. Last summer when I got into A&P I would feel as if I could go on forever.

Okay, I've missed two days practice. Two evenings ago I tried to sit and cried all the way through it. My pet cockatiel died that day and I felt grief. The death of an animal, a pet, may seem like a small thing, but it's a death, and all death is a brush with the feeling of life's fragility; it's to me like a piece of myself that is now dead and buried, a segment of my life (14 years) that is over. Plus there was evidence of suffering in the death itself--I hate talking about this--blood in the bird's beak and nostrils when we found her at the bottom of the cage, and my feeling of not having been able to help her, and the fact that she was attached to me, and I to her. Attachment-craving-clinging and whatnot. I tried saying metta for her and just broke down. I honestly don't get any of this, the beauty and vitality and integrity of a living thing, and the sordidness of a lifeless body bearing evidence of suffering.

I'm not convinced that I want to continue; now I read Loco Austriaco's posts on his experiments with medication, and I'm wondering, what am I doing to my brain? And what will the consequences be if I continue? Sorry to be such a downer; strangely enough, in other respects I'm much, much better than I was before; in fact, the knot of fear is still either gone or greatly reduced. I don't know why that dropped off or whether it will come back, but I appreciate its absence, believe me.

Sorry for such a rambling note. This will hardly be inspiring to others, I know, but at the moment I'm up to my neck in the hindrance of doubt. It happens.

Perhaps due to where i am at the moment myself, this was actually inspiring to me. I can understand how you would break down from trying the metta - it is to some degree meditation that opens you to the suffering both in self and others. And there is, at least for me, a kind of surrender in breaking down and crying that (i hope) might have been the meditation you needed.

"I'm not convinced that I want to continue; now I read Loco Austriaco's posts on his experiments with medication, and I'm wondering, what am I doing to my brain? And what will the consequences be if I continue? Sorry to be such a downer; strangely enough, in other respects I'm much, much better than I was before; in fact, the knot of fear is still either gone or greatly reduced. I don't know why that dropped off or whether it will come back, but I appreciate its absence, believe me."

Doubt is part of the path, Laurel. Along with that also comes a realization of how deeply connected to the universe we are. At some point in my practice I became very sensitive to emotional experiences so your description rings very true to me. This sensitivity included brushes with death but also brushes with life, if you know what I mean. Whatever it is that we're doing by pursuing this practice it's clearly a natural process, not some artificial manipulation. It is not like taking drugs, though sometimes the effects may sound the same.

As always, your diary here is much appreciated and as Villum's comment indicates, helpful to others.

Hang in there!

"I'm not convinced that I want to continue; now I read Loco Austriaco's posts on his experiments with medication, and I'm wondering, what am I doing to my brain? And what will the consequences be if I continue? Sorry to be such a downer; strangely enough, in other respects I'm much, much better than I was before; in fact, the knot of fear is still either gone or greatly reduced. I don't know why that dropped off or whether it will come back, but I appreciate its absence, believe me. "

First of all I am sorry for your loss. I think we all understand the feeling when something so dear to you is gone.

Remember when you told me to read that Adyashanti book "The End of Your World"? Re-read the chapters where he talks about non-abiding awaking and the feeling of "I got it, then I lost it." I feel that resonates greatly with what you seem to be going through. However, I think it will keep reoccuring along the path. There are many doubts that will keep popping up and that is just part of it however frustrating it may be.