Laurel's Practice II
- giragirasol
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86881
by giragirasol
Replied by giragirasol on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
May your sweet bird rest in peace. When our dear ones die, we grieve, we cry. We are human beings! The fact that you have a human heart is not something to be sorry about. It is that heart that flowers with compassion, the same compassion that gives you the impulse to save a little bug stuck in the sink, or help an old man in the store who is struggling with the door, or put a kind hand on the shoulder of a friend who is upset, or mourns the senseless carnage of war.
I also heartily recommend re-reading "The End of Your World" regularly. It is one of the most sensible and compassionate books I've come across about the unfolding of awakening, and is applicable from where you are and onwards.
I also heartily recommend re-reading "The End of Your World" regularly. It is one of the most sensible and compassionate books I've come across about the unfolding of awakening, and is applicable from where you are and onwards.
- JLaurelC
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86882
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
As expected this community has done what it is here to do, which is support us in our ups and our downs. I will indeed reread Adyashanti. I need a reminder. I also need to remember what's here for me in the dream state: delusion, craving, and aversion.
Thanks to everyone; Villum, I'm glad you found what I had to say of value. I frequently have a recurrence of fear that awakening will cut me off from the world and turn me into the walking dead. I think that when experiencing an incomplete level of awakening, a person can feel suspended in that state for awhile. But the point is that it is incomplete, not the whole picture. So I'll reread Adya, and resume practicing. If I get lost along the way I'll be sure to talk about it in detail so that other people can help me out of it.
Thanks to everyone; Villum, I'm glad you found what I had to say of value. I frequently have a recurrence of fear that awakening will cut me off from the world and turn me into the walking dead. I think that when experiencing an incomplete level of awakening, a person can feel suspended in that state for awhile. But the point is that it is incomplete, not the whole picture. So I'll reread Adya, and resume practicing. If I get lost along the way I'll be sure to talk about it in detail so that other people can help me out of it.
- apperception
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86883
by apperception
Replied by apperception on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
I don't think there's any particular sense one is obligated to make of death. I think there's something very honest and sane about saying you don't understand it.
I've had sessions I've cried through. Technically the best thing to do is to notice the sensations making up that experience, that they're impermanent, not self, and don't satisfy (yeah, no s**t). But that's ideal, and sometimes the best thing is to just give yourself a break. And when you're ready, go back and try to deal with it all with widening circles of awareness and acceptance.
At least, that's how I've approached it... YMMV.
I've had sessions I've cried through. Technically the best thing to do is to notice the sensations making up that experience, that they're impermanent, not self, and don't satisfy (yeah, no s**t). But that's ideal, and sometimes the best thing is to just give yourself a break. And when you're ready, go back and try to deal with it all with widening circles of awareness and acceptance.
At least, that's how I've approached it... YMMV.
- JLaurelC
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86884
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
"I don't think there's any particular sense one is obligated to make of death. I think there's something very honest and sane about saying you don't understand it. "
That's an interesting point--and I agree. I just plain don't understand it. Maybe greater insight into impermanence will bring understanding, but it won't be in a form I can anticipate at this point. Thanks.
That's an interesting point--and I agree. I just plain don't understand it. Maybe greater insight into impermanence will bring understanding, but it won't be in a form I can anticipate at this point. Thanks.
- giragirasol
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86885
by giragirasol
Replied by giragirasol on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
"I frequently have a recurrence of fear that awakening will cut me off from the world and turn me into the walking dead."
This is one of "Mara's" specialties. I guarantee you will have this thought many times. And I have never found it to be true. You can make a list of Mara's suggestions, and tell him you already heard that one and know it's not true, so he'll have to come up with a better one.
This is one of "Mara's" specialties. I guarantee you will have this thought many times. And I have never found it to be true. You can make a list of Mara's suggestions, and tell him you already heard that one and know it's not true, so he'll have to come up with a better one.
- JLaurelC
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86886
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
I'm forging ahead--was awake in the night so I meditated for about 45 mins., began with concentration on the breath, then switched to metta. Did not have much by way of jhana factors going on, but became nicely settled by the time the timer went off. Then did 30 mins. noting, lots of points at which I felt myself drift off and then found myself again (it wasn't really sleep). Then I would feel itches, then would get kriyas, would note sometimes and other times just observe through choiceless awareness. This series repeated itself over and over. Went back to bed after the timer went off, had some similar experiences as I was falling asleep (in other words, for the first time I really felt the sequence of the meditation practice continuing after going to bed and cycling in and out of sleep for awhile).
Working at achieving mindfulness during the day as much as possible. Watching the play of emotions, especially strong ones, at the same time feeling the heaviness of my ego imposing itself on everything. Wanting to step back and just let things be as they are.
Working at achieving mindfulness during the day as much as possible. Watching the play of emotions, especially strong ones, at the same time feeling the heaviness of my ego imposing itself on everything. Wanting to step back and just let things be as they are.
- apperception
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86887
by apperception
Replied by apperception on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
Have you hit 2nd path A&P, or are you reviewing 1st path?
- JLaurelC
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86888
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
I'm thinking I'm getting to 3Cs second path and am nudging into A&P territory, if what I'm experiencing is anything like 1st path. There were some flashing lights as well--forgot to mention that. But I'm not the best diagnostician, so it's just my opinion. I will keep posting and see what develops.
- JLaurelC
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86889
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
Another session last night, quite similar, although there weren't the episodes of sleepiness or dreaminess until close to the end. The itches were horrible, however; I gave in to the need to scratch three times. They produced grimaces of pain as well as shaking. The effects of these sits seem to linger afterward, especially when I go to bed. Last night I was reading afterward but I still felt absorbed in it as I read.
- JLaurelC
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86890
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
Half hour samatha yesterday, cried through part of it. Don't know where the aitch that's coming from. Feeling dismal lately, flareups of pain and with it some depression, from which I can disembed but it's still a big drag. See the 3C's everywhere and in everything, sleepy during the day, somewhat wakeful at night. I'm going to sit before bed tonight. Have had feelings of nausea and weepiness. I feel almost as if I'm in the dukkhas but I really don't think so. I think it's 3C's stuff. Then there'll be little tingles all over the body that come and go. I'll see what tonight's sit brings.
- JLaurelC
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86891
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
Sat for 45 mins. last evening, beginning with a combination focus on the breath and metta, which became really pleasant. Then switched to noting after 15 minutes for the rest of the session. Noting moved me back into the monster itches, which eventually prompted shaking and rocking motions, all of which became more pronounced as the sit progressed. Sometimes there were grimaces of anguish as the itches slammed onto my face with particular violence. All very unpleasant. But then the itches would subside for awhile and I'd just get the kriyas. Noting was a bit sporadic, mostly I was watching this stuff unfold. Thoughts flashed through and went. Later in the sit I got some periods of calm and very fine vibrations. At one point I had the notation "love" flash through me and then I felt zapped by it, beautiful, and thought "this is the A&P happening (lots of mapping thoughts), but watched the mapping thoughts. A few muffled lights flashing on the periphery at this point. Things seemed to follow a kind of arc; the intensity dropped and eventually subsided as the timer went off, but I was somewhat stimulated as I went to bed. Had trouble getting to sleep.
This morning, 30 mins., very unpleasant. No itches to speak of, but a lot of kriyas, which took awhile to get going, but once they started they began to get downright annoying. Sleepiness and dreamstates, which derailed the noting, especially at the beginning. I just wanted the whole thing to stop. Had dreamy thoughts of the timer going off, or of having a long time left to go. Eventually got to the end.
This morning, 30 mins., very unpleasant. No itches to speak of, but a lot of kriyas, which took awhile to get going, but once they started they began to get downright annoying. Sleepiness and dreamstates, which derailed the noting, especially at the beginning. I just wanted the whole thing to stop. Had dreamy thoughts of the timer going off, or of having a long time left to go. Eventually got to the end.
- JLaurelC
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86892
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
While driving from here to there last evening, became aware of the contact between my body (butt, backs of thighs) and the car seat and realized that it didn't "belong" to me or anyone, it just was there, sensation. Moved attention to my vision and experienced it as a visual field, not as things "I" was seeing. Checked my thought stream and it was unusually quiet. Watched all this continue to happen, enjoyed it happening. Was picking up my son at boy scouts, saw him and felt a wave of love, introduced myself to someone I hadn't seen before but who looked familiar (I never do that), went home, continued in this state of simply being for the rest of the night. "I" am back now, but that's okay.
I think I was doing some sort of direct mode practice before these things occurred. In any case, I'll carry on.
I think I was doing some sort of direct mode practice before these things occurred. In any case, I'll carry on.
- JLaurelC
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86893
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
25 mins. focus on the breath this morning, lots of mental chatter going on, but also lots of tingling, particularly in the legs and lower body. This in fact has been going on a lot lately, and it's rather pleasant. Sometimes I'll notice I have a light buzz on all over the body; better than champagne!
- Aquanin
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86894
by Aquanin
Replied by Aquanin on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
Looks like you got your groove back Laurel. Good stuff!
- andymr
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86895
by andymr
Your mileage may vary, but for me, these kinds of things tended to happen in A&P and were mostly noticeable off-cushion. Two months after stream entry, I had a 10-day, direct-modeish, PCE-like state that came up (see my posts 216-217*). Not realizing it was a state, I had assumed I had somehow managed to get second path, and promptly scheduled a session with Kenneth to discuss it. It passed on its own a day later.
A very similar thing happened after second path (posts 444-474**). This started with serial fruitions, leading me to think I'd recently gotten another path. It, too, lasted about 10 days. In retrospects, I think it was the 2nd path A&P event.
Both of these were an enormous amount of fun, but I really clung to them, hoping they'd last. Of course, I was fairly disappointed when they passed. I wonder if I will have learned my lesson when this path's A&P comes up.
* kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/45...et=216&maxResults=25
** kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/45...et=444&maxResults=50
Replied by andymr on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
Your mileage may vary, but for me, these kinds of things tended to happen in A&P and were mostly noticeable off-cushion. Two months after stream entry, I had a 10-day, direct-modeish, PCE-like state that came up (see my posts 216-217*). Not realizing it was a state, I had assumed I had somehow managed to get second path, and promptly scheduled a session with Kenneth to discuss it. It passed on its own a day later.
A very similar thing happened after second path (posts 444-474**). This started with serial fruitions, leading me to think I'd recently gotten another path. It, too, lasted about 10 days. In retrospects, I think it was the 2nd path A&P event.
Both of these were an enormous amount of fun, but I really clung to them, hoping they'd last. Of course, I was fairly disappointed when they passed. I wonder if I will have learned my lesson when this path's A&P comes up.
* kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/45...et=216&maxResults=25
** kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/45...et=444&maxResults=50
- JLaurelC
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86896
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
You are undoubtedly right. All I have to do is sit quietly for a moment and the energetic phenomena are all over the place, tingling up and down the body. Plus I can't sleep much these days. Then I worked myself up into a towering case of righteous indignation against a vexatious colleague yesterday, firing off a series of emails thumping my chest and asserting my authority as chair of a committee, proclaiming what it is that I expect to see happen. Wow. I haven't had anything like that for about a year or so. A part of me is exhilarated, but I'm also aware of it as dukkha in a big, big way. Don't want to apologize, though; I want to be shown respect. Huh.
- cmarti
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86897
by cmarti
Who says you can't use dukkha to obtain a good result?
Replied by cmarti on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
Who says you can't use dukkha to obtain a good result?
- giragirasol
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86898
by giragirasol
Replied by giragirasol on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
So are you finding you can't sleep much but are tired? or is less sleep sufficient? I think it was right around the same time that my sleep dropped from "as much as possible, preferably at least 8 hours" to something closer to 5-6 hours, which is still the case. That is, I often go to bed around midnight and wake up just before dawn. I am generally not tired during the waking hours. But it took some getting used to "what the hell do I do with myself" during the odd hours when other people would prefer to stay asleep.
- JLaurelC
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86899
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
This was more like, I got to sleep at 11:00 and woke up at about 2:30 and that was it. I think I was so pumped full of this conflict that I couldn't let go. It may be that I need less sleep during the A&P because it's just so energetic. I don't really know, however, how much of this was path related and how much of it a psychological pattern that predates my vipassana practice. Basically it goes like this: I defer to someone out of a sense that they know better, I support or seek the support of said individual, and then all of a sudden I get wise to the fact that the person is doing a number on me, at which point I erupt. When I erupt, I really really really use my words, because that's what I'm spectacularly good at. Then I get totally invested in the language itself, and keep rereading it, thinking "I really laid it on the line--ha!"
So Chris, if you can tell me how to get lemonade out of this lemon I'm interested. I'm sick of spinning in this kind of nonsense. My husband says six years or so ago it was constant; now, it's only occasional. I suppose that's progress. It may be that the A&P has energized me to these heights of eloquence and emotion, or maybe I'm just still stuck.
So Chris, if you can tell me how to get lemonade out of this lemon I'm interested. I'm sick of spinning in this kind of nonsense. My husband says six years or so ago it was constant; now, it's only occasional. I suppose that's progress. It may be that the A&P has energized me to these heights of eloquence and emotion, or maybe I'm just still stuck.
- giragirasol
- Topic Author
13 years 8 months ago #86900
by giragirasol
Replied by giragirasol on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
Can I throw something in? I suspect it's that first point that kicks off the problem. You "defer" (act submissive?) which sets up a power imbalance and then you "seek support" (act submissive?) and that leads to expectations that when not met release in anger. Even if someone knows more about some skill or subject than you, they are not superior to you. They are just a colleague who has a different skill set. If the expectation is one of no expectations, then that pattern is weakened. Easier said than done, of course, but watch for (ie just notice, non-judgmentally) that early stage pattern of "deferring" and "seeking support" which creates the imbalance. Just an idea.
- JLaurelC
- Topic Author
13 years 7 months ago #86901
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
It's a great idea, in fact. I have tried to catch these things before they turn into something bigger. I think also, however, that I am being too hard on myself for trusting this person's judgment--I need to assume up to a point that other people are doing their jobs, especially when they have lots of experience. It just took me longer than it "should" have to figure out that this individual was out of line and needed to be called on it. However, I have figured it out, I am calling her on it; unfortunately, the experience of doing so creates a lot of anxiety for me.
Speaking of which, I had another night where I was up at about 2:30 for hours. I had had a tai chi session yesterday, and the teacher showed me some grounding practices to help balance out my energy. So I did walking and then standing meditation in the middle of the night; after that I graded some papers. Still had trouble with the brain being stimulated. I lay in bed for awhile and watched an amazing light show early this morning, all white lights in formations like a jellyfish opening and closing, or else flickering in the periphery. The tingling seems less intense now, but it's still there. The knot of tension in the belly is annoying but I'm living with it. A lot of rumination continues, plans for how to bring this conflict to a successful conclusion.
Speaking of which, I had another night where I was up at about 2:30 for hours. I had had a tai chi session yesterday, and the teacher showed me some grounding practices to help balance out my energy. So I did walking and then standing meditation in the middle of the night; after that I graded some papers. Still had trouble with the brain being stimulated. I lay in bed for awhile and watched an amazing light show early this morning, all white lights in formations like a jellyfish opening and closing, or else flickering in the periphery. The tingling seems less intense now, but it's still there. The knot of tension in the belly is annoying but I'm living with it. A lot of rumination continues, plans for how to bring this conflict to a successful conclusion.
- JLaurelC
- Topic Author
13 years 7 months ago #86902
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
Well, things finally blew up in my face today. In brief, I overreached. I found out that the individual with whom I had been having the conflict was so upset that she was almost physically ill. Another person who was on the sidelines isn't speaking to me she's so disgusted.
I sent an apology. Before I did this I had a moment of insight. The insight was, I've been in a trance for the past few days, a trance of anger and self-righteousness. It's as if I've wanted to take a sledgehammer and smash someone. It wasn't enough to say my piece; I wanted to destroy. I guess I kind of succeeded.
In the aftermath of the insight I felt grief and compassion. Instead of seeing this person as some sort of enemy I saw her as a fragile creature that I'd smashed with my sledgehammer of self-righteousness. I saw myself not as the wise and decent person I like to imagine, not according to my self-image and self-identity, but as a bull in a china shop who doesn't have a clue about the effect she has on other people.
I also feel vulnerable. I don't know that I won't ever do this again because I didn't really intend to do it this time. Over the weekend I tried very hard to find mindfulness and all I found was self-righteousness and self-justification. I just plain wanted to feel my own power. I wasn't satisfied until I succeeded.
The other person, the third party who is disgusted, told me about a year ago I lacked self-awareness. I was offended, and have spent the past year in a trance of self-righteousness. Now I realize she was right. My husband told me not to flip over into a trance of self-loathing. I'm trying real hard. I need to aim that compassion at myself. So far I'm failing.
Now, what am I observing in this moment? Mild nausea, tingling, nausea, aching, tension, worrying thought, pressure, aching, nausea . . .
I sent an apology. Before I did this I had a moment of insight. The insight was, I've been in a trance for the past few days, a trance of anger and self-righteousness. It's as if I've wanted to take a sledgehammer and smash someone. It wasn't enough to say my piece; I wanted to destroy. I guess I kind of succeeded.
In the aftermath of the insight I felt grief and compassion. Instead of seeing this person as some sort of enemy I saw her as a fragile creature that I'd smashed with my sledgehammer of self-righteousness. I saw myself not as the wise and decent person I like to imagine, not according to my self-image and self-identity, but as a bull in a china shop who doesn't have a clue about the effect she has on other people.
I also feel vulnerable. I don't know that I won't ever do this again because I didn't really intend to do it this time. Over the weekend I tried very hard to find mindfulness and all I found was self-righteousness and self-justification. I just plain wanted to feel my own power. I wasn't satisfied until I succeeded.
The other person, the third party who is disgusted, told me about a year ago I lacked self-awareness. I was offended, and have spent the past year in a trance of self-righteousness. Now I realize she was right. My husband told me not to flip over into a trance of self-loathing. I'm trying real hard. I need to aim that compassion at myself. So far I'm failing.
Now, what am I observing in this moment? Mild nausea, tingling, nausea, aching, tension, worrying thought, pressure, aching, nausea . . .
- giragirasol
- Topic Author
13 years 7 months ago #86903
by giragirasol
Replied by giragirasol on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
A great opportunity to notice your own patterns, including the lashing out at yourself. Sometimes it takes sledgehammer to give us a zen whack that we'll pay attention to. Self-righteousness is often a defense against vulnerability. Self-loathing or self-pity can be an attempt to avoid being with vulnerability. The deeper I've gone into my practice, the more vulnerable I've felt. Try to stay with the moment and avoid the stories. Being right there with the moment is scary, and the stories try to jump in and make a buffer. Everybody goes through this in their own ways, with their own crap, and we come out the other side with more insight. You can do it, too.
- cmarti
- Topic Author
13 years 7 months ago #86904
by cmarti
Laurel, to be honest I have trouble believing you lack self-awareness. If anything, you are overly aware of your own foibles and over-correct. Sometimes folks take advantage of people who are that way. Please be careful. Please examine the situation very carefully as if you weren't a part of it. What do you see? Are you possibly over-reacting to another person's characterization of you?
Replied by cmarti on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
Laurel, to be honest I have trouble believing you lack self-awareness. If anything, you are overly aware of your own foibles and over-correct. Sometimes folks take advantage of people who are that way. Please be careful. Please examine the situation very carefully as if you weren't a part of it. What do you see? Are you possibly over-reacting to another person's characterization of you?
- JLaurelC
- Topic Author
13 years 7 months ago #86905
by JLaurelC
Replied by JLaurelC on topic RE: Laurel's Practice II
Thanks, Chris. I think, though, that I've had an awakening of sorts here. For more years than I can count I've had a pattern of getting into situations where I become intensely angry at someone over something. The trigger might be a genuine injustice, but in struggling to fix it I develop a sense of my own power that takes on a life of its own. I have been in one conflict after another, and each time I think it's the "other person" who caused it. In this case, someone was actually being a bit meddlesome and vexing, but I felt my own power and became obsessed with showing her up. My initial analysis of the situation, in post 93, was just plain wrong. The victimization I was feeling was coming only from me, my own fear of helplessness. What giragirasol says about vulnerability is spot-on: my desire has been to avoid confronting it.
What I became aware of yesterday is that people who have seen me in action are actually afraid of me. I've lost friends over the years; for the past couple of years I've had just one friend in my department who has served as kind of a personal echo-chamber for my own righteousness. It's not that people dislike me or don't respect me, but I've allowed myself to become aloof out of anger that other people aren't what I want them to be.
I don't feel shame or self-loathing, what I feel is amazed and disconcerted and chagrined. I am in fact looking at myself as if I were someone else. I don't really think this other person has the power to define me, but in this case she really did have it right, probably in spite of herself.
What I became aware of yesterday is that people who have seen me in action are actually afraid of me. I've lost friends over the years; for the past couple of years I've had just one friend in my department who has served as kind of a personal echo-chamber for my own righteousness. It's not that people dislike me or don't respect me, but I've allowed myself to become aloof out of anger that other people aren't what I want them to be.
I don't feel shame or self-loathing, what I feel is amazed and disconcerted and chagrined. I am in fact looking at myself as if I were someone else. I don't really think this other person has the power to define me, but in this case she really did have it right, probably in spite of herself.
