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recording and learning

  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75236 by WSH3
recording and learning was created by WSH3
This will be the first time I have ever really written any of this stuff down, for more than a bit - in the past I always wrote down my 'insight about practice', or something specific but I am starting to see that indeed the mind falls under cause and effect, and if I have a certain result but dont write down what I really did to get there, how will I move forward?

I will post my background first - ~5 years of daily sitting, a total of perhaps 36-40 days of retreat during this time, usually 3 days at a time, only 6-7 hours a day of sitting during a retreat with working/walking/resting intervals in between. Up to this point my practice has been mostly either following the breath, trying to be aware of two or more senses at the same time, or noting thoughts (but not 'noting' sensations).. or all of the above at once. I feel my practice is missing something important, which is why I came here.

The reason I felt i was missing a few things was due to a few experiences - one was that I had gotten results from verbally noting bodily sensations as well as thoughts (when I can see them anyway), and so I *know* that noting everything is more useful than what I was doing... The other thing is that a few years back I stumbled upon first jhana, and somehow within that space I could *see* every single thought impulse, feel every vibration of the body, and see cause and effect in the body-mind that was unavailable before. I could even see a thought impulse travel from a spot in my head down my spine and into the gut, exploding into an emotional vibration when it arrived. My awareness was very one-pointed, there was an excess of euphoria and my mind seemed to be very willing to do whatever asked of it - if I wanted to see my thought processes, there they were. If I wanted to listen to music, there it was, but in a richness and level of detail I had never before experienced.
  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75237 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
- I am pretty sure that that state of mind, though easy to attach to in idea, could be very helpful in seeing through my stuff and opening up to more of life over time. I have been frustrated lately because it seems that I can have an opening of a sorts, where I see through my mind, my body energy releases and opens up and I am more content and present for a few hours or a day or so, and then I fall back again to level 1 where that sense of 'me' feels very solid and my ability to stay with anything real is lacking. I am pretty sure that there is a direct link between concentration and the 'stickyness' of learning, so I am sure I need more work in that area.

However, each time I have tried the 'noting' as described on this site I have gained a great deal with it - learning to break down 'fear' into different sensations, to the point where I can see what is causing it in the mind. Amazing.

Onward - I will try to catch up to what has happened in the last week..
  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75238 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
Last tuesday I woke up with a strong resolve to just keep coming back to the breath as much as I could throughout the day. I normally sit 1-1.5 hours a day, but I find that 'off the cushion' practice is vital for me. I did this with a light effort for a few hours, through yoga class, work, and up until lunchtime when I retire to a closet with my cushion while everyone else eats lunch. I had been lightly coming back to the breath all morning but it felt very strong and the breath seemed to be very vivid at that point, not in a focused way but bringing the whole room in with it.

Thats when I first started the 'noting' - I'm terrible at it having not ever done anything like it, but the results were amazing...There was an energy blockage in my chest, a sensation of grief that was stuck in the process of trying to come out - so I started noting the body sensations, some sensory stuff, thoughts... Then I started noticing more and more slowly, until all the sudden a thought fragment that had been holding everything in place came up to my awareness, was seen and then *fell away*!! - I'm not sure I had ever seen that happen before.. All the sudden my body energy went from solid and stuck, and a rush of tingling and sensation came out of my chest blockage, danced through my head and It literally felt like I could suddenly feel parts of my head and neck that I normally couldn't feel... For the rest of the day, people were interesting to me (normally I have a somewhat fearful response), I could feel the energy in my body moving around, wisping off of my forearms, and I could easily expand awareness into the room, almost 'feeling' it somehow.
  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75239 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
I woke up the next day, Wednesday of last week, feeling normal but a bit lighter somehow. The effect of the opening had been slowly wearing off over the evening so I wasnt surprised. I *was* surprised, though, at how the day went. I have never experienced such emotional pain. I was on the chasm of 'get me out of here, I'm miserable' in a way that reminded me of some of my first retreats. I'm amazed that I was able to function at work at all. I sat more that day, perhaps 3 hours, and I couldnt concentrate at all - all I could do is open to what was there and try to surrender.
  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75240 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
Oddly, the next day was normal. No gnarly DN, no equanimity, just normal like the day before Tuesday. Weird. I wonder if Tuesday was a light A&P, Wednesday was some DN stuff and then I somehow slipped back down the ladder to 2 or 3? not sure. I dont remember much so I will skip ahead to Sunday...

Sunday I was very very solid again. Couldnt concentrate, couldnt see a thought to save my life. I tried noting during the day but it didnt seem to be very effective. Somehow things opened up a bit later in the day and I decided to do an hour of pure concentration that evening. I used the breath entering the nose as object but after reading some A Brahm stuff decided to take the attitude of 'letting go into the breath' instead of 'drilling into the breath'. There was an amazing difference in the two attitudes! I noticed a progression of concentration during the hour that went from normal all the way to a few seconds where there was no 'me' concentrating, which I hadn't experienced in years, then some fear, then backing off, and finally coming back down to a point where I felt like I couldnt concentrate any more. Hmm.. Things were very 'different' the rest of the evening, and it seemed like parts of my persona just weren't running, and it took them a while to turn back on....
  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75241 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
Monday was all about noting. I didnt get a big release, but I was able to see more stuff, which is good. 'fearful thought, prickly sensations in stomach, chest expanding, inbreath, energy at the corwn, etc...' One of the benefits I see to noting in this way is that I am slowly becoming more and more OK with whatever arises if I make sure to note it. Every once in a while I will catch a small glimpse of the mind working on its own, not being a part of me, but it doesnt last and I soon get mired in stuff again...Evening sitting was pretty wild - I was doing more noting and had what felt like a drillbit of pleasurable energy break out in my forehead, and start moving in a pattern which I imagine to be similar to the pattern of the cortex, twisting and turning... It was quite interesting to notice. I had a pattern draw out on the right side but the left felt blocked, like it wanted to but was stuck. Noticed 'pressure' and watched the texture of that.

  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75242 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
Sitting today was dry - noting during my lunch hour on the cushion, but I couldnt seem to make much out. Felt out of 'juice' somehow. Tried to do some concentration later in the day but it wasn't very strong. Worthwhile though. Its funny how easy it is for me to not notice how my ability to be present to something real waxes and wanes. I expect it to be strong when it is weak, and sometimes when I don't expect it I take a breath and everything comes alive.

Looking back at what I wrote out here I wonder if i should try a repeat of last Tuesday? Just try to consistently, gently come back to the breath for many hours and then shift into noting? As I sit here writing this I notice 'resisting thought' - LOL, "it" doesnt want to do that again.

  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75243 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
Woke up a bit - this mornings question?

If true happiness lies in being with what is now, what is practice and why is it so hard to not get caught?
getting caught in:
chasing after mental states
chasing after experiences
I have seen a number of times that if I do not push away anything in my experience (mind, body and beyond) or want something that isnt here already - this is true happiness... Then why do I get so caught in trying to be somewhere else? The flip side of this is that without trying to be aware, without seeing things more clearly, I wont ever notice how my aversion or attachment creates my suffering... That it doesnt have *anything* to do with the content of my life. *anything*... Seems like I see this over and over but then forget, get lost in something, some striving, some struggle to be somewhere else. Ahh the paradox of practice, right in my face again - polishing a mirror that doesn't exist, as one of my teachers would say.

Perhaps today when I do noting or concentration (or whatever I end up doing) - I will try to pay special attention to the self, trying to notice when the desire is there to be more concentrated than I already am, or to see a thought or feeling more clearly than I am, or to be more aware, or have energetic openings, etc etc. My job is to be here, as I am, right now - I need to remember to take that attitude, instead of the attitudes that cause suffering, like 'I must improve in some way' or 'I wish I could just feel this way or that way'...
  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75244 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
wow. Today almost as unpleasant body/mind as last Wednesday, but no opening yesterday? Whatever.. Here we go...

lunch sit 45 min,

'misery - where? What does it feel like? How about here? There? Can I catch a thought?
breath flowing, nostrils,
Misery, stomach, what does that feel like? Pulsating, tightness, small pains shooting around...
Hmm - interesting.

Very productive imho - I found a certain sense of EQ *within* just feeling the pain... Seems like I could be OK with it feeling like that more and more. Its difficult but I will try to find that off the cushion as well since the unpleasant stuff is still there..
I felt a small sense of gratitude - 'thanks for allowing me to really feel this pain instead of running from it'

  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75245 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
Was playing around - I think I can see the difference now between VP and Shamatha... The VP is a different way of looking somehow, like I stare at the breath and see as much detail as I can, vibrations, etc, deeply into the richness of the sensation that was once just a 'breath'... Concentration is the other way, looking without seeing detail, just holding the mind steady on the object... Interesting!! I dont think I really saw before the two different ways of looking at an object! Thats actually kind of exiting. That could explain also why Jhana seems so hard to get to(it will still probably be tough) - I'm not quite doing it right. Every time I hold my mind on an object it seems to want to do the VP way of looking - hmm.
  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75246 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
Mind has been mischevious today - getting caught in thinking about all sorts of things... Starting to note the thoughts more, looking for the attached sensations. Not doing a great job of it but trying is better than not! Noticing: "thought - maybe if I can just perfect this whole path thing I will finally be an OK person" "Body - pressure in face, tingles, grief like sensation in throat" - Havent done todays sitting yet, getting ready to go off to do that now. One thing I noticed yesterday was that I was in a mode in the evening where I couldnt sharply perceive anything, so I tried to hold my mind on a small piece of my visual field for a minute, hold it in time, i.e. how many seconds of uninterrupted 'seeing' of this patch can I get? After doing that for just a minute or two , everything was clear(er), sensations were sharp and more interesting... I may start doing that every once in a while to stay clear - there's nothing less useful in my experience to be in a state where I am trying to note or experience my reality and I can't seem to see anything with any clarity. If I have a choice, I would rather not work with thoughts and sensations as seen through a fog bank - if I get stuck in that, fine I can work with that I guess but if I can 'adjust' percpeption a bit I will choose to do so.
  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75247 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
55min, bit of concentration to weak access at first, switching to noting... I noticed that when I started the sit I was getting readily caught up in thinking, aware that I was caught but unable to see it, unable to pull my awareness out of it. Getting to a soft access concentration worked wonders, and seemed to pull me away from the thoughts enough for me to see them more clearly as thinking - noting all kinds of stuff, pretty mundane, many of which I have seen before as normal parts of my persona/beliefs... Funny how there seems to be an area of the back of my head/neck which when felt cleanly helps awareness in some way. Not sure what that is. I think I identify the self/ imagined watcher with those areas. Many sensations, mundane, pressures in head, tension in stomach, coming and going... Odd but it almost seems like the sensations are made up of discreet quanta, like a few times I felt the breath and it felt more like a stepper motor and not a continuous sensation, as if the expansion of the chest and stomach occur in tiny little steps, not continously. How odd - I'm not sure I ever noticed that before, and I'm also not sure if it was some sort of mental projection or what. Eh - I will keep on. Lesson learned though - access concentration first for me if I am lost in my head (most of the time?)... This brain thing I carry around on my shoulders is very fast, very creative, and very tricky. Fools me all the time! :)
  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75248 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
Just an observation - after today's sitting I feel 'light', happier and in the flow somehow. Experience isnt crisp and clear, just normal. Just putting it down in case there happens to be a cause/effect... At some point I can re-read all this stuff and perhaps start to see some patterns...
  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75249 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
Bit over an hour Kasina work... Very difficult for me but after doing it I see why it was hard. I am a visual thinker and my mind kept splitting subject/object in the visual field causing small interruptions in seeing - very very tough to get to any kind of sustained, comfortable visual concentration. I'll have to do that again! Hoping GF gets home soon so we can do another half hour of sitting before we go out to eat. edit - did have some weird stuff, some sort of fear energy coming up, and some finger shaking and trembling in the cheek muscles... I dont think I really passed through it all the way, makes me think I never *really* reach access concentrations, just *extra light access* ;p.. I will continue the kasina work.
  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75250 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
Did another 30 last night of noting -

morning 30, interview, noting.. Very hard to note right now, usual morning state for me. Best is usually later in the day...Lots of self doubt, anxiety this AM, doing best to note it, break down the solid experience into parts, objectify it. Funny its pretty common for me to get that exact stuff when I do the dawn sitting. I'm glad I do it because it gives me a chance to work with that part of 'it'.
  • mumuwu
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14 years 9 months ago #75251 by mumuwu
Replied by mumuwu on topic RE: recording and learning
Concentration/distraction/anxiety/etc. will all vary depending on the strata of mind you are accessing. What constitutes a good session was how well you were able to note in that session (i.e. how well you are performing the chosen technique).

If you were able to maintain your practice (e.g. noting) consistently throughout the entire sitting, then it was a good sit. If you are finding it hard to note, make sure to note that difficulty. It is in a case like this where noting out loud really becomes an extremely useful tool.

Keep up the good work.
  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75252 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
Thanks! - Funny I was just realizing that noting had gone dry somehow, and found:

"
This misses the point. If a yogi were to note silently once per second silently, the benefits would be equal to the benefits of noting aloud. Practically speaking, though, noting silently once per second for more than a minute or two is not possible for most people because they forget and the mind wanders. So the time actually spent noting silently during a one-hour sitting is almost always a mere fraction of an hour.

Noting aloud is more effective than noting silently for precisely this reason; the feedback loop of hearing your own voice once per second is what keeps you on track. You don't forget to note because every time you fail to hear your own voice coming back at you, you awaken from your reverie: "What is wrong? Oh, yeah, I forgot to note." And you begin noting again. So you can spend the entire session productively, with no spacing out. This more efficient use of your precious practice time makes an enormous difference over a period of weeks, months and years."
- so thanks to you and Kenneth.
Yes - I think somehow the first time I noted I was really doing it... I will try doing it outloud next time it is possible. I will setup a session with K soon to go over the basics of the practice as well.
  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75253 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
also just copied the first gear instructions on the first page - four foundations stuff. Will read that before sitting and do noting aloud.
  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75254 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
55min, noting, 90% out loud... many repeated thoughts, sensations. Still learning this process - my noting is a bit too complex still. I was including location for a bit.

seeing
thoughts of striving,
struggling, sensations of tension associated with them, in the forehead, center of chest.
thoughts of not being good enough, failing or going to fail, sensations tightness, twisting in gut, knot in throat...
lots of other stuff
Seen all this stuff many times - disembeding completely from it is going to take a while, but I am getting there!
  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75255 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
OK - I see what was happenig today - tonight I will stick to one foundation first, and not jump around quite so much from object to object.
  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75256 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
huh - 30 min, breath following and then switching to noting and sensing into the detail of sensations in the body that wanted to rear up. Was feeling into a knot of sensation at the base of my neck and noted a few qualities of it (which is tough as the vocab is lacking) ans suddenly noticed my mind interjecting the feeling with a 'me image'.. wait a second, thats a sensation! All the sudden most (except some in the heart and forehead) the the energy in my body got very clear, and the mind went quite still! Its a peace I dont ever recall feeling before - when for a short while at least the mind stops much of its identification with the body, its as if, when feeling my body all day like I have been, the projecting of a 'me' onto sensations is taking up an enormous amount of CPU, and suddenly its not being used anymore. I feel gratitude for the practice for showing me this - I hope to open up to it more and more in the future.
  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75257 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
3x30min today - intense fearmind, noting:... riiisiing, faaallling, fearmind, aversion, tension, tension, vibration, pulsating, vibration, white hot sensations, constriction, ....back to rising, falling, on and on... I dont think this was DN, seemed to be triggered by some stuff I had to do today, deep conditioning. It was a 'rough ride' and at some point there was just the attempt to surrender to it... when the condition was removed from my experience the fear mostly went away. Amazing how strong that stuff can be sometimes! 'not me', 'not me'... I may do some kasina a bit later.

I noticed that last time I did kasina practice it seemed to bring up anxiety, even to the next day... hmm.
  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75258 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
was reading KF's interview on the feedback loop, and it suggests to me an alternative usage: For Kasina practice, lets say I take a cup or some object, and then use my left brain as the feedback mechanism, by uttering the mantra of the object... So I would be seeing a cup, and pulling myself back and onto that seeing by saying 'cup' aloud over and over. Could be an interesting experiment! - I will try that either later today or tomorrow sometime and report the results. So far the farthest I have ever gone in concentration on the breath or otherwise is to begin to merge with the object for a plit second or two - I can tell if thats happened (and I havent fooled myself) because some portions of my mental chatter wont just come back on afterwards, and it takes a while for me to notice they are missing...Anyway could be a fun experiment.
  • WSH3
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14 years 9 months ago #75259 by WSH3
Replied by WSH3 on topic RE: recording and learning
did an hour of c on the nostril breath last night... that experiment on feedback didnt seem to be helpful after all.

Noting rocks by the way - I had a thought that previously would 'stick' come up and fall away on its own. thats freedom!
  • andymr
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14 years 9 months ago #75260 by andymr
Replied by andymr on topic RE: recording and learning
WSH, would you post a link to that interview you refer to, or point me to where I can find it?
Thanks!
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