John's practice

Because with this process of insight practice (as taught by Kenneth and others, for example) you can study the boring peanut butter sandwich and notice all the things about it, just as you can study the ham sandwich. If you study the qualities of the boring, wandering, unfocused sessions, they are not "lack of progress" - they are simply a different flavor of experience. It doesn't matter what you are experiencing as long as you investigate it. One friend described it as pretending to be an alien who has suddenly been incarnated in your human body. It has never had eyes or ears or a brain before. It has never experienced anything before. Boredom, wandering thoughts, sleepiness, etc. would all be just as interesting to it as anything else.

"Nothing happens" is never true. There are myriad things happening at every moment. But if you are fixated on looking for specific things, you miss what is actually going on.

"Because with this process of insight practice (as taught by Kenneth and others, for example) you can study the boring peanut butter sandwich and notice all the things about it, just as you can study the ham sandwich. If you study the qualities of the boring, wandering, unfocused sessions, they are not "lack of progress" - they are simply a different flavor of experience. It doesn't matter what you are experiencing as long as you investigate it. One friend described it as pretending to be an alien who has suddenly been incarnated in your human body. It has never had eyes or ears or a brain before. It has never experienced anything before. Boredom, wandering thoughts, sleepiness, etc. would all be just as interesting to it as anything else.

"Nothing happens" is never true. There are myriad things happening at every moment. But if you are fixated on looking for specific things, you miss what is actually going on."

I see what you mean. Only one point is unclear -- if my mind is wandering, then it isn't investigating, it is just wandering around in some fantasy. So that is definitely not what I want, right? I want to be investigating. I have really tried to investigate just exactly how my mind wanders off, but it is so subtle. Anything, the slightest sound or sensation, can set off the chain reaction, D.O., and off it goes ... until I remember. That is really weird when I think about it. How do I ever remember? Oh, I guess some other noise or sensation finally reminds me that I am supposed to be mindful, investigating.

OK then, the next "bad" sit I will investigate more how my mind wanders, and even try to find something interesting about the circle of cardboard taped to my wall. If only I could investigate my mind *while* it is wandering. They sound mutually exclusive, but maybe not. Maybe I can maintain mindfulness and let my mind wander at the same time. I'll try it.

" If only I could investigate my mind *while* it is wandering. They sound mutually exclusive, but maybe not. Maybe I can maintain mindfulness and let my mind wander at the same time. I'll try it."

It is actually possible. Once you get the knack of it, it's quite entertaining. I don't know how to teach it, except that if one does one's best to investigate what one can as much as possible, eventually one day one notices one can also investigate the coming and going of random thoughts, the wandering around of attention (it, too, is just a sort of sensation that bounces around from one object to another). You'll get it. Persistent determination is a useful quality to bring to practice. But if one tends to be over serious and hard on oneself, thinking of it as a game can be a nice way to make it more fun.

I've never done kasina practice, so no specific tips about that. But think about this, perhaps. The cardboard on the wall may not be particularly interesting in and of itself, but this specific split second of seeing it is completely new. Just now. And now. And now. And now. There is a coalescing of the retinal images, the brain interpretation, the emotional response (yawn, or whatever) - a thousand things happen microscopically in each instant of seeing.

Anyway, just trying to throw out some helpful ideas. Feel free to disregard.

In my experience, something "wanders" no matter how concentrated you are. Among other things, the mind is a "sense-door", so one of its many functions is to futz arround throwing up disconnected garbage. It would be like saying "my ear is wandering" because it keeps experiencing different sounds.

We think we have "a" mind that is either concentrated or wandering, but actually, there are dozens of faculties and processes that we group under the arbitrary heading "mind". I think our perception that there is "a mind", in a fixed or drifting state, is an aspect of our delusion and grasping to create a self. Our selfing process generates moment-to-moment an image of "a mind" that gathers up and evalutes the present state of those many processes and faculties.

Another process within the mind, though, is your gradually-strengthening investigation faculty. It will go on strengthening, but it will not stop or block your garbage-sorting faculty. You'll just keep getting better at seeing it without getting sucked in.

Thanks Gira and Rob. I sat for 1:10 and with all the advice I did focus on investigation, not results. I liked the idea of being an alien who has suddenly inhabited this form and truly investigating everything as new. It changed my meditation from look-for-this-state or look-for-that-sign to just the pure wonder of my ever-changing vision and swirling, chasing thoughts. I realized how tense I had become with effort, and instead relaxed and observed. I realized that it was all right there. It was already there. There was no need for effort.

Many insights came, but nothing I can express. Several koans I used to practice suddenly seemed to make sense. These things come, then they just slip away, since they can't be captured.

"Thanks Gira and Rob. I sat for 1:10 and with all the advice I did focus on investigation, not results. I liked the idea of being an alien who has suddenly inhabited this form and truly investigating everything as new. It changed my meditation from look-for-this-state or look-for-that-sign to just the pure wonder of my ever-changing vision and swirling, chasing thoughts. I realized how tense I had become with effort, and instead relaxed and observed. I realized that it was all right there. It was already there. There was no need for effort.

Many insights came, but nothing I can express. Several koans I used to practice suddenly seemed to make sense. These things come, then they just slip away, since they can't be captured.
"

That's very much the "result" one wants to find. You can even remind yourself of it off the cushion, just here and there when doing something simple like washing dishes. Sometimes it's a matter of finding an analogy that makes sense for you, to help get you to that kind of looking and shake off the stuck feeling (which can also be investigated with the same wonder and freshness). It doesn't matter what specific sensations, thoughts or feelings come up at all - they are all simply food for wonder and investigation, as if you've never seen them before. A friend of mine showed me that "be an alien" trick. I thought it was pretty genius. (edited for clarity)

Thanks Gira. This is working wonders. No more "bad" sits, just an investigation of the evaluator -- isn't it strange that something is evaluating my sits ... and I don't even know what it is. The more I investigate that which evaluates, the more elusive it becomes, until it disappears. It is interesting how investigating this way brings a certain sameness to all object of investigation.

Anyway, I did an 1:25 yesterday, and 1:00 today.

One can then try to find the investigator who's investigating the evaluator...

"One can then try to find the investigator who's investigating the evaluator... "

Ha! Yes, I sometimes get into that as well. It's a good way to make the mind fall silent. Any movement of the mind implies something that is noticing the movement. Back when I used to read Krishnamurti a lot, he would propose exactly this exercise.

Anyway, another hour on Sunday. I also had another session with Ron Crouch, and he shared with me some of his notes from a time when his practice was a lot like mine, with a lot of dissatisfaction, no clear path to follow, and no definite leading edge from sit to sit. Apparently this is just the way it goes at this point. There isn't a technique to apply, I just need to be mindful as much as possible and accept whatever comes, kind of like the advice I've been getting here on the board

You have a long history of practice behind you, so Ron's evaluation makes sense, and is similar to what I've seen in quite a few other people who have a long history of practice but have gotten massively stuck. Once they spend a few months letting go of the stuck habits and getting a fresh orientation into their practice, things start to click along and they often find their practice is much deeper than they realized. I'm happy that you seem to have found something that's working for you.

Thanks Gira, you have been very helpful.

Yesterday I sat for another hour. Early in the sit, I had a very noticable blip. This one wasn't subtle at all. Nothing special came immediately after it though. However, later in the sit, I had another strange experience. As I looked at the kasina, a large circle of violet "mist" would form and then pulsing it appeared to move away, getting smaller, and then disappearing, followed by another large circle, then another, about every five seconds. The violet "mist" around the kasina isn't new, and it has even formed into a circle before, but it has never done anything like this before. It felt like it was forming in my head and then transmitting out to the kasina. I absolutely wasn't trying to do anything, and simply investigated it. Then, more towards the end of the hour, the kasina images separated far apart again like they used to months ago, and I experienced some huge bliss waves.

Otherwise, the sit was just very focused. During the sit I did as Ron suggested and tried to access the Pure Land jhanas and N.S. For my PL efforts, I felt waves a joy and gratitude coming down and through me. For NS, everything became very dark and void, and my breathing became very, very slow -- but again I wasn't aware of any stoppage. I'm not sure how I could tell with everything already dark and void, but I assume it would be obvious.

Wow. That's fantastic, John. Good show!

Thanks Laurel.

Another hour. In the spirit of investigation, I just let the meditation go where it would, and this time I didn't reach the higher jhanas, so there was no jumping off point to try PL or NS. Focus was very good. I noted some, and spent a lot of time on "watching the watcher," always finding that any time I could be aware of anything separate there was something standing apart, and investigating that. Nothing unusual to report.

One hour with the kasina. Not the greatest focus. Quite a bit of pain, right in the heart. Again, instead of trying to control or judge it, I just sat and investigated whatever came up. Sometimes my mind wandered, sometimes I noted, sometimes my mind was clear and silent. Like yesterday, I didn't seem to reach any of the higher jhanas, but at the end of the meditation I tried going up to PL anyway. I did get a bliss wave, but it was brief and that was all. Then I tried NS and did get the darkness, the void, but again no sense of anything stopping. It surprised me a little that I got anywhere with either PL or NS, since I thought to reach them I had to be in the higher jhanas. Maybe what I experience is just from my expectations and doesn't have anything to do with actual PL or NS.

Oh yeah, the only strange thing is that after the sit I can see just fine without my glasses, and I can't see with them on. This happens sometimes, but I don't know why.

No time for practice Thursday, busy busy. 1 hour Friday. 55 minutes today.

A lot of blips. Maybe these are fruitions, but they don't come with any bliss waves or anything. In both of my long sits, the kasina did not split into two images as is customary, for about the first 30 minutes. No idea why. Another seemingly new thing is that my mind does wander, but ... let me try to put this in a way that makes sense -- I am not the wandering mind. It used to be that my mind wandered and meditation was gone. I was just day dreaming. Now, my meditation actually remains strong, spacious, and separate, and I can watch the wandering mind without identifying with it. It isn't "me." So actually my focus has been great, even with a lot of wandering thoughts, because the "me" is the meditating part, not the wandering thoughts. Does this make any sense to anyone?

I really have the board, especially Gira to thank. Now I investigate whatever comes up without judging it as important or unimportant, progress or backsliding. Forgetting about all of that grasping and judging and just really focusing on exactly WHAT IS at the moment, exactly as it is, without trying to avoid, escape, or add anything at all to the experience has been a kind of breakthrough for me.

Taking this approach I believe has caused the change it how I experience wandering thoughts. I used to be "inside" them, caught up and taken away, and now I am "outside," investigating.

Meh, just when I think I have a breakthrough way of seeing things I have a sit like this. Torture. 1 hour kasina. No focus. Lost in thought. So very aggravated and sad. I noted it all. I noted all the disgust, discouragement, desire for deliverance. That's what it was. I stayed true to my new ways, and investigated what there was: pain, loss, uncertainty, doubt, frustration, hopelessness, and feeling like it was all such a waste of time. No confidence.

Still had the blips, the maybe fruitions. I don't know what is going on, but this is a typical cycle. Maybe not even a cycle. It just does whatever it will. I have no control. The last sit doesn't mean anything. Lots of pain and frustration. Looking at it, really investigating it, there is a core of desire, of wanting to be, to be something, someone, something. It's all delusions. A powerful delusion.

I remember distinctly the first time I meditated and had "monkey mind" and... I was still meditating! I was astonished such a thing was possible. Later I recall the same change happening with sleepiness, too. After a while it was pretty clear the mind can do all kinds of **** and you can just sit there meditating...and watch the mind doing all kinds of ****. It's kind of cool, even when sometimes it's unpleasant.

Thanks Gira.

Another day, another hour. Still the blips. Focus was better, but still a lot of frustration. I don't seem to have any control over it. Noting and investigating is all I do. Lots of silence, not so much chatter. Whatever arose, I noted it and investigated. It was dull nonetheless. The sense of frustration was there regardless of what I did. Very unsettled. Unlike yesterday, there was no pain, just frustration.

I sometimes have thought of those phases as like when you take cold medicine and it makes you groggy - there's nothing you can do to change it, it's like a drug in your blood. The more you can embrace it with that sense of wonder (happening by itself! I'm not making this happen!) the easier it gets. Frustration is at some level a battle against what is - wanting something to change. These heavier phases are a deep kind of teaching and purification, to my mind.

"I sometimes have thought of those phases as like when you take cold medicine and it makes you groggy - there's nothing you can do to change it, it's like a drug in your blood. The more you can embrace it with that sense of wonder (happening by itself! I'm not making this happen!) the easier it gets. Frustration is at some level a battle against what is - wanting something to change. These heavier phases are a deep kind of teaching and purification, to my mind."

Yes, it isn't just when I sit, it's all the time. I feel deeply dissatisfied and frustrated. It feels like I need to do something, but I can't. I don't even know what exactly I need to do. I feel trapped, or cornered. No matter how neutral or open I try to be, it is still there. No matter how much I focus on it and investigate it, it doesn't dissolve or change. It feels dark and negative. Sometimes it causes pain.

I know that soon it will just pass on its own, like nothing. Then it will probably come back in a week or two. Overall though, the pattern seems to be that it is lessening with every cycle.

I suppose what I want is some great insight that sweeps it away forever. I keep waiting for higher equanimity, or a path, something, anything that will end the conflict and leave me in peace. That's the way it is: I have desires. No use denying it. My desires are in conflict with "what is" and so I suffer. If I could really let go of them, I would.

A dear friend of mine used a Zen story to describe these kinds of moments. One feels like a rat trapped in a Chinese rat trap, which is made from a bull's horn. The rat can squeeze in, but then he can't back out, nor can he go forward. He is stuck. Struggle is useless and just hurts. The only thing to do is surrender completely, give up wanting anything at all. In complete surrender, transformation arises. Surrender is infinitely difficult. I always turned to prayer in those awful moments, as it seemed the only thing left. In any case, speaking outloud to the universe about your desperation and misery can help. Laying in a heap on the floor in tears, begging for mercy can help (I half-kid, but I've been there). It may come back around a few more times, or not. The transformation will come on its own, when it is good and ready. Not when you want it. As long as "you" "want" ...well, that's quite an impediment isn't it! Who wants this? Who desires? Try to find the who.

Thanks Gira. Yes, that's me, in a rat trap! Even surrender does no good as far as getting out of the trap, but I guess that is the point -- to surrender and stop trying to get out.

I did an hour on Tuesday and an hour yesterday. No more blips, but good focus at times. Quite a bit of mind wandering yesterday. I just follow it if I am outside of it, watching. If I am inside of it, I pull myself out. I note it all. Sure, and then I wander who is the me who pulls myself out of the fantasy. Who is the agent who can effect such a change? Why is the noting me better than the fantasizing me? Can I be aware of being aware? This creates some silence, and then any movement of thought I observer "there it is!" and then realize that the observer claiming "there it is!" is another separate entity that is no more real. More silence, then another round.

When I achieve some deep focus, I still try to get a definite answer to whether or not I can access Pure Land or N.S. Of course, I never get a clear answer. Following the suggestions for entering PL, I sometimes do get waves of bliss and/or gratitude, but they most often don't last long and aren't followed by feeling I am in some special or different space. Attempting NS I do get a lot of darkness, sometimes like a void, and I do sometimes get a sense of falling or things slowing -- but nothing stops as far as I can tell. So nothing definite. Then again, the other jhanas aren't all that definite either.

I know it doesn't matter in the end. I am where I am. Things will happen when they happen. Still, this is a practice, and there are maps. Some suggest that sometimes certain techniques can help at certain stages, so it would seem to be worth knowing.

However, the best guess is that I am at a stage where nothing can be done.

You sound like you have an awesome practice.

I'm just starting concentration practice now, having gotten 2nd path. Would you be willing to look at the last couple entries in my practice log and tell me if I'm going in the right direction? kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/49...set=20&maxResults=20 It feels like I might be getting it, but having never experienced jhana before, I can't tell how close I'm getting.

You sound like you are on track, I left a post.

Yesterday, one hour. No pain, no itches, no problems at all, except for the frustration and boredom, but that isn't constant, it's just mostly towards the end when I start evaluating the sit. Yeah, I know I shouldn't, but I do. Nothing happened. I noted. There was a little flickering at one point. I tried for PL and got waves of bliss/gratitude. I tried for NS and got darkness/void. I noted some more. I did some 3C investigation. I did some watching the watcher loops. I asked who was bored, who was frustrated. I asked who was asking that question, and who was listening to it, and so on.

Hi John,
Take this for what it's worth as I'm pre SE. But in my experience the depth of the jhanas is very much dependent on the time spent in access concentration. Personally I count the breath 1-8 gaps between out/in and doesn't enter jhana until it's very shallow. Sometimes it feels like it's almost stopping. I also want the space to start to lit up. Did a month with Leigh Brasington this year and this was the signs he thought for sufficient access concentration. He also taught this way of counting which comes originally from Pa Auk, an acknowledge jhana master. On the retreat I even continued after that sometimes counting for 1-1,5h and then spent another 2h cyceling up and down, first to cutting edge. Was so concentrated I had a hard time walking while getting up from the chair. I also discovered that for me a specific time frame, afternoon and forward works much better for building concentration. Newer mind, .the point is that maybe you need deeper concentration to build momentum to get in to the PL jhanas and NS

Just a few thoughts

Keep at it Metta
Erik