John's practice

Thanks for the advice, Erik. I used to go into the jhanas much harder, but then I started doing a lot of noting and other insight practices, so I think you are right. Maybe I should dedicate a session to pure concentration. I know what you mean about having a hard time getting up and walking, that it how it used to be for me before I started working on insight more.

I already sat an hour today, so I'll try counting the gaps as you suggest tomorrow.

Today's sit was pretty typical in some ways, decent focus, noting, etc... However, I did notice constant emotional pain. This pain, it became clear, is not part of the cycle, it is the core of the self. It feels like I'm almost down to the bare metal, so to speak. This is what is left. That's the way it felt, anyway. I just let it burn. It seemed like the pain was trying very hard to get a grip, to draw "me" in somehow. I just watched, seeing that it was truly impermanent, unsatisfactory, and despite desperately trying to be otherwise, it just wasn't "me," it wasn't personal, it wasn't a real self. The feeling of self was a reaction to pain, a reflex to protect. It was interesting to watch.

I did an hour Saturday trying for pure concentration. I counted the gaps between breaths and tried to get very, very focused. I didn't note or do any insight. Oddly enough though, my concentration was no different than usual, and my PL and NS attempts were exactly the same as ever. I think the trouble here is that it isn't entirely clear to me what is access concentration, this jhana, that jhana, and so on. There are the "hard" jhana experiences that Leigh Brasington or Pa Auk talk about, and then there are the "soft" jhana experiences that Kenneth has said you can get a taste of just by crossing your eyes. It seems certain that I get nowhere near the "hard" jhana experience. I am well aware of everything around me. I'm not in a trance, in I wouldn't describe my experiences as "rapture" or anything like that. So by the standards of the "hard" jhana teachers, I've probably never experienced any jhana at all.

Having enough concentration to help fuel my insight practices is enough for me right now.

Today I did an hour of noting. It was fine. I noted everything. It really wasn't very different from an hour of pure concentration focus. I'm just in a weird place where nothing seems to happen. There is sometimes emotional pain, but then there is a lot of silence and a lot of space as well. It doesn't seem to matter what I do.

I did an hour yesterday, mostly focusing on surrender. More than one person has suggested that this might work better for me. I didn't seem much different during meditation, but I felt a lot better afterwards. When the emotional pain that has been persisting came up, I just surrendered to it and let it go. I must have been energizing it by subtly fighting it, because letting it go seemed to make vanish. Everything else was about the same. Decent focus, some vibration, maybe a blip or two but nothing afterward, the same old stuff.

For only the second time in the seven months I've been doing this practice, I've missed two days in a row. The thought of sitting is just aggravating. It seems like a waste of time. It's just boring. I don't know exactly what the problem is, but any words of support or encouragement would be appreciated.

If this is only the second time it's happened in seven months, then I'd say you're doing pretty well! Better than I've done on the whole. We're all going to have days like that. Just reread all your posts attesting to how much this practice has done for you, especially in the thread on depression. You'll pull out of this!

Surrender to not sitting!

Some thoughts that may or may not make sense for your situation:

Boredom isn't an *absence* of motivation, but the *presence* of compounds of ideas and expectations about what sitting means to you, that are not being fulfilled. The painful desire to bypass these, we call "boredom".

If you have been practicing in a very disciplined way, break up your discipline a bit. Once I did a session lying down, because I just couldn't bear the idea of sitting. Giving in to that made it obvious how much I had invested in the image of a "sitting" yogi.

It might not even be so bad to consider not sitting, for just a couple of days. Fill your scheduled meditation time with something like a walk, or exercise, or housecleaning- something that still involves a kind of commitment and presence, but hasn't developed the crust of frustration the way that sitting has. Do you think you'd give up practice forever, if you took a break? Probably not. You know the motivation is there, you're just in a temporary tangle.

There is work going on inside you that your conscious mind can't see- don't be afraid that you are "stopping your progress". That can't be done, even if you wanted to.

Some suggestions:

(1) Have confidence in yourself and in the results of the practice you've laid down over the past 7 months. Feelings of boredom and aggravation come and go easily. A solid foundation of practice is more difficult to shake.

(2) Speak with your teacher. The experience you're having is common, and any decent teacher will likely have helpful words for you.

(3) Don't think you necessarily need to do anything about this, though if there's anything you think which might help your practice - changing the frequency, duration, or type of practice - then do so. Why not?

(4) Soften your stance. There's not such a hard distinction between practicing and not practicing - except in your mind. If feelings of boredom or aggravation keep you off the cushion, fine. Don't bear down on them. Don't fight them. Don't do anything with them. Just notice those feelings. That's practice. Don't think of it as practice, though. No effort. Just be with the feelings as they are. And in the back of your mind, have a little confidence (see #1), and know that the feelings are impermanent, just like everything else.

Good luck.

Thank you, everyone! I did manage to sit for an hour just now, and it wasn't so bad. I wonder if anyone else has sits like these -- it was like one part of my mind was completely focused, there were vibrations, there were blips ... but another part of my mind just went on non-stop thinking about some very emotional issues I am dealing with right now. Strangely, it seemed like a good sit, despite the fact that part of my mind was off in all kinds of thinking.

I'll take it. The hour went by pretty quickly. I just hope the emotional turmoil ends soon.

". Personally I count the breath 1-8 gaps between out/in and doesn't enter jhana until it's very shallow. Sometimes it feels like it's almost stopping. I also want the space to start to lit up. Did a month with Leigh Brasington this year and this was the signs he thought for sufficient access concentration. He also taught this way of counting which comes originally from Pa Auk, an acknowledge jhana master. On the retreat I even continued after that sometimes counting for 1-1,5h and then spent another 2h cyceling up and down, first to cutting edge."

Erik, can you say more about this. What does "count the breath 1-8 gaps between out/in" mean? What means "this way of counting which comes originally from Pa Auk"?I don't think this is what you mean but this morning I prolonged the gaps between in/out and just rested in that space. After doing this for several minutes I did my mahamudra medition. That prologue made the MM meditation much deeper.

jack

One of the keys to practice is to just stop judging. Period. Quit applying labels like "good" and "bad" to your meditation sessions. Stop applying similar judgmental labels to your mind states. What is is just what is. The fact that you're judging this stuff implies that you're wanting, or trying, to change it. That's not practice, that's just more illusion. You cannot change the stuff that happens to you and you have very little control over your mind. So relax into your experience. You might be amazed at how much more effective that is that the judging and resisting path

And yes, that is all easier said than done, but you should try, because trying to do that is practice.

The experience you are having is the classic dilemma faced by folks on the part of the path you are now in. There is a clear yearning, a desperate need to get something done, but absolutely nothing you've learned up to this point seems to help. No jhana, no nana, no special state is the answer. And the more you sit in them, the more frustration arises.

Hang in there! This is the hardest part and it is a sign that things are moving along. The key, as everyone has already said so well, is to really let go now. Investigate all the ways you are hanging on to experience, the sources of frustration, and untie those knots.

This is a problem you cannot solve, but it is a problem that you can drop by going deeper and further into practice.

First I just want to encourage John to hang in there. Keep going you can do it.

"Erik, can you say more about this. What does "count the breath 1-8 gaps between out/in" mean? What means "this way of counting which comes originally from Pa Auk"?I don't think this is what you mean but this morning I prolonged the gaps between in/out and just rested in that space. After doing this for several minutes I did my mahamudra medition. That prologue made the MM meditation much deeper. "

It means that you do regular anapanasati and count the stop between in and out breath. No manipulation just simply breath in/out and think 1 at the space before you breath in/out again and count 2 in next space. All the way to 8 then you start all over again. The teqnuqie is a good way to stay centered in the breath and access concentration for a long time. Spoke to a teacher that did 4 months with Pa Auk. he wants you to go on like this until you se a nimitta circle of light, can take months, some can't even get it. Then when it's stable you shift focus to the nimita and absorb in to it and this is the way to reach his 1 jhana. According to what I heard only 30% of his monastics is able to do it. So he has pretty high standards for jhana. Anyway it's a good teqnuqie for developing concentration

Thanks for answering me, Eric. I must be missing something. Isn't that the way everyone who counts their breaths does it? I count at the end of the out breath and go up to 10 but iIsn't that essentially the same thing?

jack

all the advice you got is spot on. chris puts it particularly clearly i think. there is not actually any problem except your fixation on having this or that kind of experience, instead of the experience you happen to actually be having.

"Thanks for answering me, Eric. I must be missing something. Isn't that the way everyone who counts their breaths does it? I count at the end of the out breath and go up to 10 but iIsn't that essentially the same thing?

jack"

Yes i suppose it is whatever works

Thanks Chris, Ron, Ona, and everyone! It sometimes takes a lot of people repeating the same thing for it to sink into my thick skull.

I did two hours today, all surrender. That's all I did was surrender to what is, at least for an hour and a half. I kept having bliss waves and gratitude pouring down, so for no particular reason I decided to test Nirodha Samapatti. I "pressed" down from the third eye and things became dark and void. The next thing I remember my timer was going off. Two hours was up. I was out for thirty minutes! When I came to I was disoriented. I had no idea where I was or what I was doing. I was still sitting, perfectly normally. In seven months of meditation, I have never fallen asleep before. Either I feel asleep or it was the NS.

No matter though. Sitting in surrender was very peaceful. No matter what came up, I surrendered. I didn't try to stop thoughts, I surrendered to having them, and so on. I let everything go.

In keeping with the instructions, I'm not judging this sit, and I won't have expectations for the next one. I'm not in control. These things are just happening on their own.

"
Boredom isn't an *absence* of motivation, but the *presence* of compounds of ideas and expectations about what sitting means to you, that are not being fulfilled. The painful desire to bypass these, we call "boredom".

"

really good definition, i think, and not just in context of john's situation.

Another hour surrender. Felt drowsy. Just surrendered to everything. Nothing to report really. Except for feeling drowsy, there was nothing unusual. Not much thought. Just sort of floating along in surrender.

40 minutes, a break, 40 more minutes. Surrender. Not trying to control anything. Somewhat drowsy, but the time ripped by. At one point felt a lot of vibrations, and almost like a humming in my ears from the vibrations, but no big deal really. Pleasant enough. Seemed to move into the higher jhanas, but no bliss/gratitude waves today. I just let it all happen by itself, and worked on relinquishing my imaginary control over and over.

1:10 minutes looking at the kasina, and trying to just surrender to whatever comes up. What came up today was endless thinking about personal matters, planning conversations, fantasizing outcomes. My mind has just been obsessed lately with a single interpersonal issue. Before this issue, it was something else. For whatever reason, my mind is latching on to anything to obsess over, worrying about possible bad outcomes. I have no control over any of these things that I can't get out of my mind, not even during meditations. I think maybe that is the hint: I don't have any control over things, and I have to let go.

I keep surrendering and letting go over and over. Sometimes that quiets the mind for a while. Not today.

My only "resistance" was to try noting for a little while. No effect really. Should I even try to break the obsessive thinking? When I curiously observed it, I noticed that it just seemed to be a need to control, a refusal to accept that there are unknown outcomes beyond my control. I watched and it carried on, as it has for quite some time now, on and off the cushion.

"I think maybe that is the hint: I don't have any control over things, and I have to let go."

Letting go means letting go. You have to do it no matter what

There's a game you can play: look for the sensations you associate with "needing to control" or "this is dangerous and needs controlling" or "this is wrong and needs fixing". Assume that you have about 20 different trigger sensations and try to notice them during a sit.

If you get good at it, then maybe on the next sit (give yourself time and don't be in a hurry!) look closely... it's possible that that the trigger has both a feeling (completely objective sensation - e.g. heat) and an emotion (aversive or clinging personal sensation, e.g. shame or pride) that seem like they occur at the same time. If you really let things be and just observe, you might be able to un-confuse the two -- and see those triggers as having both components.

"There's a game you can play: look for the sensations you associate with "needing to control" or "this is dangerous and needs controlling" or "this is wrong and needs fixing". Assume that you have about 20 different trigger sensations and try to notice them during a sit.

If you get good at it, then maybe on the next sit (give yourself time and don't be in a hurry!) look closely... it's possible that that the trigger has both a feeling (completely objective sensation - e.g. heat) and an emotion (aversive or clinging personal sensation, e.g. shame or pride) that seem like they occur at the same time. If you really let things be and just observe, you might be able to un-confuse the two -- and see those triggers as having both components.

"

I have done this very carefully. There is a feeling in the chest, a rush of adrenaline, that is the feeling. Then there is the emotion of fear. I don't understand what you mean by "see those triggers as having both components" ... do you mean the obsessive loop of worry has both triggers? What do I need to un-confuse?

"What do I need to un-confuse?"

Feelings (sensations that you can observe objectively, like heat, cold, tenseness, tingling) as opposed to emotions (things that are called "fear" or "anger" or "aversion"). These two kinds of objects are distinguishable and occur separately, even though we think they're just one thing mainly out of habit.

And now the obsessive recurring thoughts are gone! After weeks of suffering, all I did was observe that the rush of adrenaline in my chest or the sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach were in fact separate from the fear and emotional pain. I didn't do anything else. The really bad part is that I did this with anxiety about six months ago after learning all about Dependent Origination, but I somehow failed to see the obsessive, emotionally painful thoughts as being the same as fear and anxiety ... even though the triggers were almost exactly the same. Doh!

@Beta and Chris: Is this what you expected to happen when I examined the triggers? Does just seeing it break the chain of D.O.? I mean, apparently it does ... but it seems so simple.

It is like a great burden has been lifted from the third eye area. I feel so relieved and relaxed. THANKS!