Meekan's meek journal

It seems to me that whatever you are doing is working!

I hope you're right!
Thanks a lot!

""wandering away lots, but still present.""
That definitely sounds like a good thing to me.
I remember reading somewhere about how "we are not the waves, we are the ocean" that's stuck with me and, I think, that's what you're getting at.
Keep up the good work!!

Thanks, Rev!

Went a little wild today (wohoo... no stoppin' us now!) and sat on my ole Zafu on a mat (long time ago I sat on a zafu at home - thought it would provoke some pain to investigate

45 minutes
quite focused and calm,
usual tensions and so
a brief stint of fear (very short, but I think it was there)
a short stint of anger with some people
some pains and such
then a lot of discomfort just came over me, and I gave in and looked at the timer... 19 minutes left
some judging thought, "I wanted to just invite the urges and pains, not look at the watch, fleeing"
renewed effort
quite calm, and a light look to the thoughts
after some time, anxiety, restlessness, and a pain in my left leg that grew quite intense
I just let the pain be, not fighting, watching it, but cycles of urges to look at the timer, get up, thoughts of "am I hurting my leg" countered by "ok, let the leg fall off"
then there was some inner turmoil, and the image of the buddha touching the earth came to me, and I focused on the base of my legs
some fascinated thoughts "I am not fighting, I am observing"
bell rang

so basically I had to renew my intention to just observe and surrender all the time, but I managed to stay clear of fighting the discomfort

Probably the majority of people never will experience what around here is known as first path. Probably I am one of them - I surrender to that. This provokes envy, frustration, etc...
When I evaluate my sits and how I perceive sensations - like sometimes I see itches moving, pulsing, etc... I realize I did that in the beginning too, at least when I began noting. And there is still a distinct feeling of an 'I' observing all of these situations. Maybe my sittings haven't evolved at all since day one - I surrender to that too. This is even MORE negativity provoking than the previous one.

I keep on working at continually surrendering to them if these thoughts and realizations occur in the moment.


45 minutes
pulsing
calm, light, observing of sensations, fatigue, tired
monster itches towards the end, moving around, challenging them
feeling quite light at the end, some elation and sunny feelings

nice - I have the same thoughts sometimes. Its easy for me to get caught up in supressing instead of acceptance/noting. Thanks for the reminder.

Glad the comment helps!
I sometimes think people are so intent on maps and chasing SE (whatever that is), that they forget that the frustrations of not reaching there are something to surrender to.

And also I am questioning this whole 100% success rate thingie.
How do we know?
Those who report it have sure had this experience, and the other ones dropped out, "didn't apply themselves enough" or need to continue doing it ad infinitum .

I believe there is benefit in continuing the practice regardless of whether I should ever have an experience that qualifies for a certain stage/attainment.

So, sweet surrender (is sometimes a b**** .

Metta to ya'll!

"And also I am questioning this whole 100% success rate thingie."

heh - I know its not 100% but since I'm one of those people who sit because they *have* to, I might as well steer in that direction. Before I didnt know there even *was* a direction, mushroom culture and all, didn't know the DN existed, just thought I was messed up in the head. Sounds extreme but deep down I know I will die on the cushion, whether its stuck in pre-path DN or after 4th - might as well be a harda$ and go all the way ;p

good luck and metta back.

Sounds like we're similar that way.
Maybe it won't pay off, but we'll keep on doing it
Good luck to you too!

Whatever "pay off" means...

I can relate pretty big-time to this discussion since
#455, meekan and WSH3. I've been sitting off and on for
decades now. Faithfully an hour a day for a decade.
A number of retreats, including a 3 month one a long
time ago. A year and 1/2 with Kenneth. I figure some
people just are not talented. Just never going to be
a great musician no matter how much I practice.

But I suffer a lot less, feel more authentic and can
take on more responsibilty and have better character
from all this practice. And that's even more the case
since I learned out loud noting etc. So, can't deny
I'll be sad if I never get 1st or 2nd path. But
without sitting and mindfulness I'd be a wreck.

I have neurological and psycho-social problems (autism
and schizophrenia are both prevalent in my family) and
used to live a fringe existence. Now I have a responsible
career and support a family. All I have to do is stop
sitting for a few days and the problems start to come
back. So, I can't say enough for sitting. It can be
miraculous even without paths. Unfortunately, it took me
years and an irrisistable drive to tap into the practice
to that extent. So, I'm afraid it may be true that it might
take an A&P and DK to persist.

Of course the post path experiences and development seem
to go pretty far beyond being able to keep a job. But
what is the result of hanging on to a thought like that?
Tight body, painful mind. Your discussion of surrender
makes me realize I want to be in control. It's hard to
surrender! You must have a lot of courage.

Hi, K.
Never thought of it as courage.
Since I can't shake that "I" that I'm dragging around, I just feel that it is necessary for me to do the best I can from here.

Thanks for interacting!

Today I sat 45 minutes with snot running and coughing.
It gave me a lot of aversion and thoughts like, ahh, what's the point.
Another day...
But I gave myself gentle permission to blow my nose and cough.
no discernible sequence but a lot of playing with urges to get up, check watches, etc.
Those sneaky little buggers...
Relaxed into them again and again, and then suddenly my hand was moving to check the time.
I actually had some fun with these aversive feelings.
peace

Fun with aversive feelings? You've cracked up...or are making progress. I vote progress, hands down.

I guess if you're going to claim an attainment, claiming Knowlege of Mucus is probably pretty harmless. It's right there along with the other minor nyanas, like Knowledge of the Current Time (which it appears you resist claiming).

"Fun with aversive feelings? You've cracked up...or are making progress. I vote progress, hands down."

Why does one have to exclude the other? Can't I have both?
Muhahaaaa

"I guess if you're going to claim an attainment, claiming Knowlege of Mucus is probably pretty harmless. It's right there along with the other minor nyanas, like Knowledge of the Current Time (which it appears you resist claiming).



"

Hey meekan, are you experiencing any of the objects during meditation in a vibratory or particulate way? Any pulsing/flickering/tingling/etc.?

If you note for a while and start to get that sort of phenomenon (e.g. tingling in the hands/face/etc. where there was solidity before) I find it really helpful to try and remain aware of it (even when off the cushion). It seems to really keep the mind aware of impermanence and keeps the ball rolling.

"Hey meekan, are you experiencing any of the objects during meditation in a vibratory or particulate way? Any pulsing/flickering/tingling/etc.?

If you note for a while and start to get that sort of phenomenon (e.g. tingling in the hands/face/etc. where there was solidity before) I find it really helpful to try and remain aware of it (even when off the cushion). It seems to really keep the mind aware of impermanence and keeps the ball rolling."

Hi, Mu!
I can't really tell if I do?
I sometimes feel something similar, but it is when my hands or fingers go numb.
You know like when you press a certain nerve on the elbow, or your arm/leg falls asleep.
I doubt if I really have ever experienced impermanence like that.
I believe in larger strokes, like sensations don't last over time, but not like the pixels that make up the picture...

Guess I'll always be the chronic yogi over here taking first class over and over, while all others graduate

"I can relate pretty big-time to this discussion since
#455, meekan and WSH3. I've been sitting off and on for
decades now. Faithfully an hour a day for a decade.
A number of retreats, including a 3 month one a long
time ago. A year and 1/2 with Kenneth. I figure some
people just are not talented. Just never going to be
a great musician no matter how much I practice.

But I suffer a lot less, feel more authentic and can
take on more responsibilty and have better character
from all this practice. And that's even more the case
since I learned out loud noting etc. So, can't deny
I'll be sad if I never get 1st or 2nd path. But
without sitting and mindfulness I'd be a wreck.

I have neurological and psycho-social problems (autism
and schizophrenia are both prevalent in my family) and
used to live a fringe existence. Now I have a responsible
career and support a family. All I have to do is stop
sitting for a few days and the problems start to come
back. So, I can't say enough for sitting. It can be
miraculous even without paths. Unfortunately, it took me
years and an irrisistable drive to tap into the practice
to that extent. So, I'm afraid it may be true that it might
take an A&P and DK to persist.

Of course the post path experiences and development seem
to go pretty far beyond being able to keep a job. But
what is the result of hanging on to a thought like that?
Tight body, painful mind. Your discussion of surrender
makes me realize I want to be in control. It's hard to
surrender! You must have a lot of courage."

I love this post, Kachapa. It makes me think of something the Buddha said: "My practice is good in the beginning, the middle, and the end."

Practice makes our lives better, at whatever level we happen to be working. It just works. Lovely.

You just need more hours on the cushion, Meekan. I'd like to be able to tell you there is a magic solution, but there isn't. If you really want to move through this current frustrating phase, I recommend that you log two hours of formal sitting/walking each day.

Rubbing two sticks together to create a fire, you are putting them down just as they start to get warm. This will never result in ignition. Keep rubbing well beyond the point where you are tired of rubbing and you will see them light up at some point. Anything less is a recipe for frustration, resignation, and despair.

This doesn't mean that you have to "over-effort" during any sitting or walking period. It just means you have to log more hours.

Hi, Kenneth!
Thanks a lot for your input, much appreciated.
Unfortunately at the moment it's virtually impossible in my life to have that kind of consistency.

I was inspired to ask you a question in the general discussion forum that could perhaps be of benefit for others who are in a similar situation!

Lots of gratitude!!

Sat for an hour.
For the last couple of months, I believe the times I have actually been able to see some kind of sequence in my sits clearly can be counted on the fingers of one of my hands (regardless of loud or silent noting)
Today the same mix of itches, motion experience, elation, nausea, slight anxiety, etc...
One thing was fun. I have before just for fun tried looking backwards to see some kind of flicker, and it hasn't really done much for me.
Today at one point, maybe 45 minutes into the sit, I involuntarily did this, and some cool patterns were displayed against the back of my eyelids, so I did it intentionally again, and again saw these patterns (just an effext of the light through the eyes and the motion) but as I went back I had this mixed feeling of profound calm paired with a very intense pain in my back.
So I was calm as a cucumber while at the same time having aversion towards this dang pain.

Sat 45 min silent noting, short rest 25 minutes loud noting.
Firsr session wandered up to expansion, pleasant calm.
Second was more full of aversion.

Later today at the hairdresser, I had a moment where I really zoned out. I remember looking out, getting like really focused (concentrated on something at the table next to me) then I was just gone for a short while. And afterwards I tried to recollect what I was doing and thinking. But the moment was just gone.
Now I am certain this has nothing to do with those blips people describe near path.
I am more fascinated that having spent so much time trying to be mindful, I just totally lost a couple of frames from life